Prime Muhammad Ali vs. a prime Larry Holmes?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's definitely not IL duce. Horrible poster, but not him. You're giving him far too much credit to completely change his style and tactics.

I was going to post the same the other day, I never saw much of Il Duce on here but I have read plenty of his guff on old post and Kalan is not he.

It's like everytine someone pops up on Current scene that's a bit argumentative he must be a reincarnation of Brut, like it's impossible for there to be more than one internet troll in the world.
Kalan is no Duce, he is his very own style of troll.


Lets call him El Douche

[evrenb]

That's definitely not IL duce. Horrible poster, but not him. You're giving him far too much credit to completely change his style and tactics.

I was going to post the same the other day, I never saw much of Il Duce on here but I have read plenty of his guff on old post and Kalan is not he.

It's like everytine someone pops up on Current scene that's a bit argumentative he must be a reincarnation of Brut, like it's impossible for there to be more than one internet troll in the world.
Kalan is no Duce, he is his very own style of troll.


Lets call him El Douche

He certainly echoes the Anti Ali diatribe of Il Dufus

[davie]

I was going to post the same the other day, I never saw much of Il Duce on here but I have read plenty of his guff on old post and Kalan is not he.

It's like everytine someone pops up on Current scene that's a bit argumentative he must be a reincarnation of Brut, like it's impossible for there to be more than one internet troll in the world.
Kalan is no Duce, he is his very own style of troll.


Lets call him El Douche

He certainly echoes the Anti Ali diatribe of Il Dufus

The world of online boxing forums is filled with those who like to question the greatness of the most popular champions.

And there's no greater target for that than the Greatest himself

[Kalan]

Yup... And I guess no independent posters who don't buy that nonsense are allowed on this site... I have to buy into Ali and the Golden era -- even though Ali got decked by little guys... trashed and stopped by the only superb boxer he ever met who matched him in height and size... and was upset and beaten up by prohibitive underdogs... What if Eastern European Gennady Golovkin is upset by Daniel Jacobs??? How many haters would have a field day???

Then there are those unknowledgeable folks like Ambling Alp who claim Henry Armstrong was a clean fighter, and I'm supposed to buy into that idea.

I'm not making it personal. I just state the facts and the myth perpetuators take it personally. They don't state any facts because they don't have any on their side. Their only solution is attack me personally. If I reply in kind I'm threatened with a ban. White wash the site so there's no truth or logic here.

[evrenb]

Yup... And I guess no independent posters who don't buy that nonsense are allowed on this site... I have to buy into Ali and the Golden era -- even though Ali got decked by little guys... trashed and stopped by the only superb boxer he ever met who matched him in height and size... and was upset and beaten up by prohibitive underdogs... What if Eastern European Gennady Golovkin is upset by Daniel Jacobs??? How many haters would have a field day???

Then there are those unknowledgeable folks like Ambling Alp who claim Henry Armstrong was a clean fighter, and I'm supposed to buy into that idea.

I'm not making it personal. I just state the facts and the myth perpetuators take it personally. They don't state any facts because they don't have any on their side. Their only solution is attack me personally. If I reply in kind I'm threatened with a ban. White wash the site so there's no truth or logic here.

You say you just state facts but that isn't true. I have mentioned twice how Holmes was decked by an 188lb Kevin Isaac and you ignore it as it contradicts your lame, biased, nasty agenda against Muhammad Ali.
I'm not discrediting Holmes btw. Cos I admire him tremendously.

[Kalan]

That's a fair point I hadn't really considered... Holmes went down early in his career and that fact is seldom mentioned.

Holmes was dropped in his 7th fight, and wasn't floored again until his 32nd fight... He was dropped in his 7th, 32nd, 39th, and 51st fights, and fought a total of 75 fights ... Ali was dropped in his 11th, 19th, 32nd, and 48th fights and fought 61 fights... Holmes was dropped by 1 opponent who weighed under 210 -- and 3 of the guys who dropped Ali weighed under 210..

Being knocked down in that many fights isn't a big credit to either guy -- but I don't see how you get a stronger chin for Ali out of that.. It's a bit of a wash when you look at it that way.. I still think Holmes had the more resilient chin -- because he fought to the age of 52 without being damaged.. It may be that Ali took more punches and that's why he got hurt -- and Holmes better defensive skills stood him in good stead as an elder ring-general still plying his craft.

[evrenb]

That's a fair point I hadn't really considered... Holmes went down early in his career and that fact is seldom mentioned.

Holmes was dropped in his 7th fight, and wasn't floored again until his 32nd fight... He was dropped in his 7th, 32nd, 39th, and 51st fights, and fought a total of 75 fights ... Ali was dropped in his 11th, 19th, 32nd, and 48th fights and fought 61 fights... Holmes was dropped by 1 opponent who weighed under 210 -- and 3 of the guys who dropped Ali weighed under 210..

Being knocked down in that many fights isn't a big credit to either guy -- but I don't see how you get a stronger chin for Ali out of that.. It's a bit of a wash when you look at it that way.. I still think Holmes had the more resilient chin -- because he fought to the age of 52 without being damaged.. It may be that Ali took more punches and that's why he got hurt -- and Holmes better defensive skills stood him in good stead as an elder ring-general still plying his craft.

They both had great chins is the answer you might be looking for. They were both very brave...and comparing patterns in their careers as a way to discredit Ali is childlike.

[BoxBuzz]

That's a fair point I hadn't really considered... Holmes went down early in his career and that fact is seldom mentioned.

Holmes was dropped in his 7th fight, and wasn't floored again until his 32nd fight... He was dropped in his 7th, 32nd, 39th, and 51st fights, and fought a total of 75 fights ... Ali was dropped in his 11th, 19th, 32nd, and 48th fights and fought 61 fights... Holmes was dropped by 1 opponent who weighed under 210 -- and 3 of the guys who dropped Ali weighed under 210..

Being knocked down in that many fights isn't a big credit to either guy -- but I don't see how you get a stronger chin for Ali out of that.. It's a bit of a wash when you look at it that way.. I still think Holmes had the more resilient chin -- because he fought to the age of 52 without being damaged.. It may be that Ali took more punches and that's why he got hurt -- and Holmes better defensive skills stood him in good stead as an elder ring-general still plying his craft.

I'll say this, Holmes was far more respectful of incoming than Ali was. Whether by intelligence or by humility to the fact that cumulative punches to the head are to be respected in terms of head injury. Holmes did not have the ego that Ali had, and never made absorbing punches a badge of honor the way that Ali did. If I had to guess, I would imagine that the science of head injury was probably shared with Larry by his camp far more than it was with Ali. Larry was a bit more scientific of a thinker, whereas Ali was a bit more faith based.

[Like a Boss]

The speed and versatility of a prime Ali would have been more than Holmes could handle IMO.

[hhaehre]

That's definitely not IL duce. Horrible poster, but not him. You're giving him far too much credit to completely change his style and tactics.

Caractacus is Il Duce.
Kalan is his own sad sad individual, a loser who gets off putting actual fighters down. I should't even post about him, he gets way to much attention around here.

[Kalan]

That's a fair point I hadn't really considered... Holmes went down early in his career and that fact is seldom mentioned.

Holmes was dropped in his 7th fight, and wasn't floored again until his 32nd fight... He was dropped in his 7th, 32nd, 39th, and 51st fights, and fought a total of 75 fights ... Ali was dropped in his 11th, 19th, 32nd, and 48th fights and fought 61 fights... Holmes was dropped by 1 opponent who weighed under 210 -- and 3 of the guys who dropped Ali weighed under 210..

Being knocked down in that many fights isn't a big credit to either guy -- but I don't see how you get a stronger chin for Ali out of that.. It's a bit of a wash when you look at it that way.. I still think Holmes had the more resilient chin -- because he fought to the age of 52 without being damaged.. It may be that Ali took more punches and that's why he got hurt -- and Holmes better defensive skills stood him in good stead as an elder ring-general still plying his craft.

I'll say this, Holmes was far more respectful of incoming than Ali was. Whether by intelligence or by humility to the fact that cumulative punches to the head are to be respected in terms of head injury. Holmes did not have the ego that Ali had, and never made absorbing punches a badge of honor the way that Ali did. If I had to guess, I would imagine that the science of head injury was probably shared with Larry by his camp far more than it was with Ali. Larry was a bit more scientific of a thinker, whereas Ali was a bit more faith based.

I don't think anyone took absorbing punches as a "badge of honor" ... A professional boxer is supposed to be clever and avoid punches.. No "boxer" wants to be known as a dummy.. Since Ali stressed his defensive skills -- and told Nat Fleischer in an interview that he had no desire to find out how good his chin is -- I don't think he disrespected the damage head shots can incur.. Every boxer meets many punchy fighters.. And you meet many others who always sound like they have a head cold.. You don't want to end up that way, and you know it's from taking head punches..

Boxers like Chuvalo, Bonavena, Mayorga, and Winky Wright, sometimes showed contempt for their opponent's punching ability.. Some fans enjoy that display of machismo.. Most fans think they're being an ass.. Boxing is supposed to be the art of hitting without getting hit -- the Art of Self Defense -- not a display of silliness.. I've occasionally seen boxers punch themselves in the jaw before a fight.. As if that will help them take a better punch once the fight starts.

[evrenb]

That's definitely not IL duce. Horrible poster, but not him. You're giving him far too much credit to completely change his style and tactics.

Caractacus is Il Duce.
Kalan is his own sad sad individual, a loser who gets off putting actual fighters down. I should't even post about him, he gets way to much attention around here.

Caractacus is Brutu...not il duce.
I'm becoming slowly convinced Kalan is duce...though others say no.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I was going to post the same the other day, I never saw much of Il Duce on here but I have read plenty of his guff on old post and Kalan is not he.

It's like everytine someone pops up on Current scene that's a bit argumentative he must be a reincarnation of Brut, like it's impossible for there to be more than one internet troll in the world.
Kalan is no Duce, he is his very own style of troll.


Lets call him El Douche

He certainly echoes the Anti Ali diatribe of Il Dufus

Every troll is anti-ali. I don't think Il duce ever hurled person insults. They're not remotely similar.

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan, i'll retract badge of honor if you take it that way. ......but he would often take a hard shot, and then try to sell everyone that it was nothing. He would never just absorb them. But you could often tell when he was hurt because he went into "selling it" as if it was nothing. Probably wasting energy as a result.

Holmes was typically poker faced. He wouldn't spend any energy outside of doing his job. Very efficient Holmes was.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Start your own thread, buzz. This one is about your beloved trolls.

[Kalan]

That's a fair point I hadn't really considered... Holmes went down early in his career and that fact is seldom mentioned.

Holmes was dropped in his 7th fight, and wasn't floored again until his 32nd fight... He was dropped in his 7th, 32nd, 39th, and 51st fights, and fought a total of 75 fights ... Ali was dropped in his 11th, 19th, 32nd, and 48th fights and fought 61 fights... Holmes was dropped by 1 opponent who weighed under 210 -- and 3 of the guys who dropped Ali weighed under 210..

Being knocked down in that many fights isn't a big credit to either guy -- but I don't see how you get a stronger chin for Ali out of that.. It's a bit of a wash when you look at it that way.. I still think Holmes had the more resilient chin -- because he fought to the age of 52 without being damaged.. It may be that Ali took more punches and that's why he got hurt -- and Holmes better defensive skills stood him in good stead as an elder ring-general still plying his craft.

They both had great chins is the answer you might be looking for. They were both very brave...and comparing patterns in their careers as a way to discredit Ali is childlike.

You have the mind of an infant. Ali had a good career, but we're asking who was the better Heavyweight and who would win. To do that you have to compare the boxers: their vulnerabilities, their weaknesses, their approach to training, their styles, their consistency, their offensive short comings, their defensive shortcomings as well as their strengths. And if somebody contends they had strengths they never owned - that should be pointed out...

We know that Holmes won 48 straight including 21 straight Heavyweight Championship Fights.. We know that no other Heavyweight Champion ever accomplished those 2 items simultaneously.. We know Holmes was perhaps the best Heavyweight pure boxer ever.. We know that Ali lost to prohibitive underdogs: Ken Norton and Leon Spinks.. We know Ali got hit with jabs, left hooks, straight rights, right hooks, uppercuts, and looping shots.. We know that Ali and Holmes actually fought when Holmes was 30 and Ali was 38.. The fight was a million miles from being competitive, and not a fight so much as a beating that was sad to watch.. Holmes took it easy, praying that somebody would come to their senses and stop it -- and Angelo Dundee eventually put a belated end to the shameful pasting.

[Cygnus475]

Kalan were discussing their primes. Youre cherry picking all over the place.

[Kalan]

Cherry picking the Norton fight when Ali was 31, got his jaw shattered, and was beaten by a 10/1 underdog???

Never happened to Holmes anywhere close to that age.

[Counter-puncher]

We know that Ali and Holmes actually fought when Holmes was 30 and Ali was 38.. The fight was a million miles from being competitive, and not a fight so much as a beating that was sad to watch.. Holmes took it easy, praying that somebody would come to their senses and stop it -- and Angelo Dundee eventually put a belated end to the shameful pasting .

does no part of you even begin to recognise that judging Ali on his performance, when he was already clearly quite ill, is ridiculous?

is there no part of you that wonders, just for a second, if it might not be more balanced to compare fighters at their peaks, rather than when one of them is half-addled by the onset of a disease that would kill him later in life?

[Syntax Error]

Cherry picking the Norton fight when Ali was 31, got his jaw shattered, and was beaten by a 10/1 underdog???

Never happened to Holmes anywhere close to that age.

Age is irrelevant.

The condition & skillset of the figher is what matters.

Ken Norton was always a difficult proposition for anyone who wasn't a concussive hitter, like Ali & even Holmes.

Remember, Larry Holmes himself went life & death with Norton five years after he beat Ali & just nicked it & you could argue that Norton was past his peak in '78 & Holmes was bang in his.

[Kalan]

Holmes' left biceps was badly torn a couple weeks before the Norton fight... He stopped training and tried to get it healed, but it was impossible due to the time involved... He won the early rounds as his jab held up... but after the 4th he had to resort do brawling because the muscle was unraveling... Normally he would have beaten Norton very easily -- but the injury was the same type biceps tear Liston suffered in his 1st Ali fight, when he quit in the corner after the 6th.

[Kalan]

The problem when the biceps goes, is you can jab... but you can't retract the hand quickly and it leaves you really vulnerable.

[cfang]

A prime Ali would beat Holmes very time.

[Kalan]

Prime Holmes would destroy a prime Ali every time... Prime Ali (29) couldn't even beat a 5'11" X 205 left hooker who walked straight in.

Holmes never lost in his prime... and even did pretty well against Ray Mercer when he was 42... Holmes only failed to win a Heavyweight Championship at 42, because Mercer, who knocked out Tommy Morrison in his previous fight to win the WBO World Heavyweight Title, was stripped for fighting Holmes.

[Kalan]

Unbelievable that anyone would get stripped of a World Title for fighting an ATG Heavyweight Champion... But Larry was up against that kind of crap his whole career because he trashed Ali.. But Larry Holmes was going very strong at 42.. Where were Ali and Frazier at 42??? ... Beaten to trash.