Prime Muhammad Ali vs. a prime Larry Holmes?

[Kalan]

Holmes beat better opponents in his prime (and he beat a few guys who beat Ali such as Leon, Berbick, and Norton) than Ali did.. Tim Witherspoon was a prime boxer-puncher of the size, caliber, and chin of which I never saw Ali face and actually get a win. And I don't think Ali ever faced anyone like Ray Mercer at any time that he ended up with an actual clear victory over a prime fighter. You might try Ron Lyle, but his losses to Young and Quarry just make a lie out of that, as Mercer would destroy those 2.

[hhaehre]

And I don't think Ali ever faced anyone like Ray Mercer at any time that he ended up with an actual clear victory over a prime fighter. You might try Ron Lyle, but his losses to Young and Quarry just make a lie out of that, as Mercer would destroy those 2.

Like Mercer destroyed Ferguson? Anyone who thinks prime Ali wouldn't box circles around Ray Mercer is insane.

[Kalan]

Right... like Ali boxed circles around 10/1 underdog Norton. All he did was run and get his jaw shattered.

[Kalan]

Quarry was more the speed and finesse of a Tommy Morrison...who Mercer clubbed out in 5... Quarry beat Lyle but was beaten up by slow assed Chuvalo.

[BoxBuzz]

Quarry was beaten up by slow assed Chuvalo.

You need to order a thicker pair of glasses.....study the tape.....what you say here is highly erroneous and lacking in judgement.

With a clear conscience you can be clever and get away with stating that Chuvalo has a recorded win over Quarry. But when you go farther than that, you start to show your novice nature.

[Kalan]

You're the novice around here.. You haven't gotten anything right yet.. Chuvalo drilled Quarry with a lot of body shots which slowed him down... Then the extremely slow Chuvalo hit Quarry with a left hook and knocked him down.. Quarry bounced up, but decided to take a knee for more recovery time -- and he misjudged the count... That's the confusion of a disoriented fighter who's a little spacey from taking shots.

[BoxBuzz]

Ok, perhaps I'm the novice, but that doesn't give you the right to go taking advantage of my youthful innocence.

[Kalan]

Well...in certain ways you are I guess... you're extremely youthful in brain development -- and extremely innocent of sexual excess

[Nile4000]

Ali fought better opponents, and was in more tougher situations. Larry would have his moments, but would lose to the original by like 10-5, 11-4 in a UD fight.

[BoxBuzz]

I'm not so sure that those who claim that a Prime Larry Holmes beats a prime Ali aren't correct. But it's sort of an apples and oranges scenario.


Here is my "neutralizing qualifier" that would have to be imposed in order to make this a fair discussion.

The biggest reason a prime Larry Holmes has an advantage over Ali in a "prime to prime" showdown is because the student learned from the master.

So give Ali the chance in his learning days to spend as much time with his mirror image, as Holmes had to learn from Ali...you would make it an even set of parameters.

In which case, I would favor Ali.

But the Holmes who learned from Ali....does have an advantage, that can not be ignored or discounted.


Believe me...Leotis Martin does NOT beat Sonny Liston if you rob him of the hours he spent sparring with Sonny and learning the keys to competing with his teacher. He had "inside info" so to speak.

[Kalan]

But the Holmes who learned from Ali....does have an advantage, that can not be ignored or discounted

What did Holmes learn from Ali??? ... a body attack??? ... a defense???? ... getting hit with left hooks??? overall skills

The truth is that Ali actually learned more from Holmes than Holmes learned from Ali... because Holmes was so fundamentally sound and Ali wasn't.

[elmersalsa]

But the Holmes who learned from Ali....does have an advantage, that can not be ignored or discounted

What did Holmes learn from Ali??? ... a body attack??? ... a defense???? ... getting hit with left hooks??? overall skills

The truth is that Ali actually learned more from Holmes than Holmes learned from Ali... because Holmes was so fundamentally sound and Ali wasn't.

Just like Ali, Holmes never went to the body, either.

[Seamus]

Holmes aged better, but in there primes, big hand and foot speed advantage for Ali.

[Kalan]

WRONG!!! ... Holmes had the big edge in hand speed. Watch their sparring in the "Rumble in the Jungle" in the documentary "WHEN WE WERE KINGS"

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan....at that moment in time....Holmes would have clearly been at his fastest...even if not his best.....and Ali though still very good, would clearly not have been at his fastest...or his peak.

So as is often the case....your getting a bit Mumbo Jumbo on this topic.

[Kalan]

Just like Ali, Holmes never went to the body, either.

WRONG!!!!!! ... Holmes DID go to the body and was very good at it... Watch him rip out Leon Spinks and he hammered a lot of guys to the body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMlqrGeR_FI Go to 1:30 of the video. As he finished Spinks off he threw 2 lefts and 2 rights to the body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIepxeyiU1c Go to 1:23 of this 1 as he finishes off Ossie Ocasio -- who just beat Jimmy Young twice. He sends both left and right to the body... Unlike Ali, Holmes was a complete fighter and that's why he could get Title Fights at 42, 43, and 45... When Larry was 42 Ray Mercer was supposed to be a Heavyweight Champion, but they stripped him when he fought Holmes.. Boxing politics.

[Kalan]

Kalan....at that moment in time....Holmes would have clearly been at his fastest...even if not his best.....and Ali though still very good, would clearly not have been at his fastest...or his peak.

So as is often the case....your getting a bit Mumbo Jumbo on this topic.

As often you're full of it.. At 32 you're still in your prime and still have good speed.. Holmes was a neophyte but whipped up on Ali. He actually had to lighten up and take it easy on Ali many times -- because he was so superior.

Now when Larry was 10 years older than that at 42 he was clearly past his best and didn't have the old speed... He still whipped Ray Mercer... Ali was so gone at that age it wasn't even funny -- because he lacked the skills and craft that Holmes retained, because Larry made sure he learned what he was doing.

[cfang]

Ali beats Holmes every time for me. Every time. He was a superior fighter and boxer. Don't get me wrong holmes was great and a top ten heavy of all time but Ali was before the lay off far better than post - everyone can see that. He'd lost his legs for 15 rounds.

Holmes never fought foreman or frazier and went life or death with norton when holmes was at his best. Ali beat a better Nortn when Alsi was past his best.

Ali's best wins Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers
holmes best wins an older Shavers an older norton, cooney, witherspoon

Say it all for me

[Seamus]

Holmes never defended his title against Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Greg Page or Gerrie Coetzee, not to mention that he never gave Tim Witherspoon a rematch. Want to say he'd have been a clear favorite in those bouts, fine go ahead, but defending against those guys beats facing the likes of Leon Spinks, Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, and Lucien Rodriguez any day.

[Kalan]

Holmes never defended his title against Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Greg Page or Gerrie Coetzee, not to mention that he never gave Tim Witherspoon a rematch. Want to say he'd have been a clear favorite in those bouts, fine go ahead, but defending against those guys beats facing the likes of Leon Spinks, Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, and Lucien Rodriguez any day.

Trevor Berbick easily beat Pinklon Thomas... Holmes beat Berbick easy... Dokes was knocked out by the stiff Gerry Coetzee so he didn't qualify to fight Holmes... Coetzee was knocked out by Mike Weaver who Holmes cleaned up and knocked out... Greg Page's first 3 losses were to Trevor Berbick.. Tim Witherspoon.. and David Bey.. 3 Heavyweights who Holmes beat. He didn't qualify to fight Larry... Holmes went 48-0

[Kalan]

Ali's best wins Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers holmes best wins an older Shavers an older norton, cooney, witherspoon

Ali was NOT ahead on the cards when his first fight with Liston was stopped due to a torn left biceps after 6.. In their rematch, Ali should have been DQ'd for refusing a referee's direct order to go to a neutral corner for the entire count.. Foreman was drugged.. Frazier beat Ali.. Norton beat Ali.. Ali couldn't stop Shavers who was knocked out many times.. Holmes beat Norton and stopped Shavers... and blew Frazier's undefeated son away in a minute.

Holmes best wins were Ray Mercer.. Tim Witherspoon.. Ken Norton (who beat Ali and broke his jaw).. Trevor Berbick (who beat Ali easy)... Mike Weaver who also became Heavyweight Champion... Ossie Ocasio, who beat Jimmy Young twice to earn the title shot... Marvis Frazier who easily beat Joe Bugner to get the Title Fight... Muhammad Ali, who ducked Holmes for many years before finally fighting him when he didn't have a title to risk... Undefeated Truth Williams... David Bey and Reynaldo Snipes were also undefeated.. And unlike Ali, Holmes did not lose to any of the above.

[HomicideHenry]

Holmes and Holyfield are the only guys I can see beating Ali over a series of matches.

[Kalan]

I see both Holmes and Holyfield beating Ali... But other Heavyweights I see beating Ali were: Jack Johnson... Jack Dempsey... Gene Tunney... Joe Louis... Tim Witherspoon... Michael Spinks... Mike Tyson... Ike Ibeabuchi... Lennox Lewis... Vitali Klitschko... Wladimir Klitschko... David Haye... Deontay Wilder... Alexander Povetkin... Luis Ortiz... and Anthony Joshua.

Guys Ali beats include: John L Sullivan, Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, Jess Willard, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johannson, Sonny Liston, Jimmy Ellis, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Trevor Berbick, Mike Weaver, James Smith, Michael Dokes, Gerrie Coetzee, John Tate, Tony Tubbs and many many more... Ali was a fair boxer and basically any champ who couldn't box well wouldn't survive against him

[BoxBuzz]

Ali's best wins Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers holmes best wins an older Shavers an older norton, cooney, witherspoon

Ali was NOT ahead on the cards when his first fight with Liston was stopped due to a torn left biceps after 6.. In their rematch, Ali should have been DQ'd for refusing a referee's direct order to go to a neutral corner for the entire count.. Foreman was drugged.. Frazier beat Ali.. Norton beat Ali.. Ali couldn't stop Shavers who was knocked out many times.. Holmes beat Norton and stopped Shavers... and blew Frazier's undefeated son away in a minute.

Holmes best wins were Ray Mercer.. Tim Witherspoon.. Ken Norton (who beat Ali and broke his jaw).. Trevor Berbick (who beat Ali easy)... Mike Weaver who also became Heavyweight Champion... Ossie Ocasio, who beat Jimmy Young twice to earn the title shot... Marvis Frazier who easily beat Joe Bugner to get the Title Fight... Muhammad Ali, who ducked Holmes for many years before finally fighting him when he didn't have a title to risk... Undefeated Truth Williams... David Bey and Reynaldo Snipes were also undefeated.. And unlike Ali, Holmes did not lose to any of the above.

You're too clever by half.......he wasn't behind on the cards either as I recall. And you just MIGHT want to consider what was going on during the "rounds that he lost".....I mean....would you consider that a fair playing field for those moments? He was losing pretty gracefully to Liston with liniment in his eyes. Nobody else could have guided themselves through those waters. Put some of that in any other opponents eyes...and I'm guessing that some linamint along with a good Liston Left....would just about sew up any other fight you can name.

Now just stop being a big dummy head, and get yourself a cool shoe shine.

[northern]

That's a really good question. Prime Ali Vs Prime Holmes. Would be very interesting to see a simulated boxing match like that.

Ali advantages -
*Better (potentially faster) footwork
*Better tactician both in the ring and out of it
*Amazing ability to manipulate his opponents into making mistakes or making their strengths work against them
*better out-boxing and counter punching ability

Holmes advantages -
*physically stronger
*Better experienced with different styles and opposition (including Ali as a former sparring partner)
*Potentially better conditioned due to the advances in sport science by the time he was in his prime.
*Great amateur experience and additional sparring experience before making the change to the pro ranks

What would happen -
*Ali controlling the pace and looking to trade in short bursts to wear down Holmes or counter punch and do damage over the full fight and outwork his opponent in order to win rounds convincingly.
*Holmes achieving a knockdown in the later rounds of the fight and doing noticeable damage to Ali in the early stages but slowly beginning to tire over the 12 round distance.

Who would win -
*Ali - unanimous decision

Why -

Holmes was a great heavyweight, sadly he was caught in the era after Ali so he was never really going to get out of that shadow, much like Joe Frazier when he won the world title after Ali was forced into retirement due to refusing military service, So he never got the same sort of respect due to the world heavyweight champion.
Holmes fought great boxers: Ali albeit well past his prime, Spinks, Marvis Frazier who unfortunately never succeeded in transferring his amateur boxing ability into the Professional sport, Witherspoon in his early days, Ken Norton that proves he could handle more experienced world level boxers even trading with People like Tyson at his most aggressive while Holmes was on the decline and later on lasting the full 12 round distance against Evander Holyfield later into his career. so he could easily go a full 12 round with Ali if both were in their prime.

Ali on the other hand had a way of transcending the sport outside of the ring, much like Floyd Mayweather does, he pull's people into the fight and weather they love him or hated him, he fed on that and it made him better, the mental fortitude at his prime must have made him, in his own mind at least, unbeatable, literally 'the greatest', And that alone can be a deciding factor in a fight.
Comparing opposition, fighting a Olympic gold medallist like Frazier proves he can handle a high level amateur boxer who made the successful transition to the pro ranks. Fighting Foreman when he was past his prime proves his physical toughness and ability to weather a powerful fighter and use better tactics over a dangerous fight. Then you have the natural arrogance of Ali at his prime, his fight against Ernie Terrell, proves he could beat someone on the world level, not just badly but breaking them mentally because he could over a full fight and embarrass them just to prove his superiority.