History's biggest coward

[Kalan]

Those were the days I guess.
anyway, I think with anyone you can always find a guy they could have fought. Even if you beat the top 4 guys in your era (when they were in their prime) people will come up with the 5th best. Or if not a heavyweight why didn't he move up in weight? If he does move up in weight then inevitably the guy who gets the title that he vacated will be singled out as someone he ducked. Or if if he retires with the title, then someone will say he should have fought his successor.


Realistically, if you fought the best guys around (when they were close tho their prime) then nobody should be bashing you. Michael Spinks, Leonard, Hearns, Duran fought the best out there. Many of the greats before them did the same.

Leonard and Hearns didn't fight the best... Leonard ABANDONED the Middleweight Title he won from Hagler because he DIDN'T want to fight Michael Nunn or Mike McCallum... Tommy Hearns and Marv Hag also avoided McCallum and Nunn... Duran did the same... Mike McCallum was a dangerous man... Watch 1 minute into this video as Mike exposes those lily livers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKMOqDLVFuk

[Ambling Alp II]

Editors Note - When Leonard beat Hagler, Nunn had never beaten a ranked fighter and was barely ranked himself. It would be very difficult to find a human being who was talking about a Leonard-Nunn fight at the time.
McCallum was still a Jr. Middleweight. There was little talk of a McCallum-Leonard fight. When McCallum fought his first fight at middleweight, he lost to Sumbu Kalambay.

[Seamus]

And he lost bad to Kalambay !

[Nile4000]

Leonard was a bit of a douche, in that regard.

[Kalan]

Editors Note - When Leonard beat Hagler, Nunn had never beaten a ranked fighter and was barely ranked himself. It would be very difficult to find a human being who was talking about a Leonard-Nunn fight at the time.
McCallum was still a Jr. Middleweight. There was little talk of a McCallum-Leonard fight. When McCallum fought his first fight at middleweight, he lost to Sumbu Kalambay.

Michael Nunn was highly ranked – but different entities rank totally different Middleweights according to their politics..

Leonard’s FIRST fight after beating Hagler came against Donny LaLonde – Michael Nunn knocked out Frank Tate to become the IBF World Middleweight Champion well BEFORE Leonard fought the unknown Lelonde... The fact is, Leonard campaigned at 160 through the year 1989… During that time Michael Nunn knocked out Sumbu Kalambay, Juan Roldan, and Frank Tate and beat Iran Barkley over the distance while issuing numerous challenges to Leonard.

What you’re saying about Mike McCallum is bunk. Mike McCallum fought at Middleweight off and on from 1985... He was in the spotlight for his KO wins over Julian Jackson (who later won a World Middleweight Title) Don Curry, and Milton McCory. Leonard had been inactive for years and never fought at 160 before his shot at Hagler... McCallum had very good cred at 160 while Leonard was fighting past due fights with Hearns and Duran at 160 defending his 168 title.

[HomicideHenry]

No man who gets in a ring is a coward... However... The most cowardly performance... Without question, Charlie Zelenoff in his pro debut against 1-13 (all 13 losses by way of knockout) Andrew Hartley in Paris, Arkansas in 2008.

After several months of nonstop YouTube video challenges, claims of an amateur record, and insane stalkeresque posts on every boxing site known to man... He got his chance on Stacy Goodson's shows... Less than 1:30 of the first round he spit out his mouth piece three times.

The rest as they say is history. He never fought again, although he now claims a 200-0-0 record in "real boxing" matches as he has somehow created this alternate reality that professional boxing is fake and all champions are really actors.

You and him are even. Two of a kind, fake boxers.

This sport has far more people in it like Zelenoff, myself, Hartley, Strege, etc than it does legitimate fighters of all around capabilities. Without the third tier and second tier class, there most certainly wouldn't be much in development in boxing: or at the very least someone to work with to keep you winning and inflate that record, to keep you in the news feed.

As for him and I being Two of a Kind, I take exception to that considering Zelenoff ran away from (at the time) the worst active boxer in the world and quit, never to box again: whereas I didn't run, and took the beating like a man from a solid prospect and from time to time still mix it up (albeit in gym/backyard brawls and exhibition bouts) and still looking to do pro contests that suit me.

[BoxBuzz]

cmon....you are engaged in the sport. Zellenoff is engaged in a neurotic psychotic trauma drama. Your a sportsman, he's one felonious act away from being a ward of the state.

[HomicideHenry]

cmon....you are engaged in the sport. Zellenoff is engaged in a neurotic psychotic trauma drama. Your a sportsman, he's one felonious act away from being a ward of the state.

thanks Buzz means alot

[Caractacus]

Apparently so. Obviously he was not a real man like Jesse James who robbed banks and killed people, and who was by the way was not a good shot. How in the world did we get to talking about this?

Maybe because the threads title here is "History's biggest coward" not "Boxing History's biggest coward".
anyway I must have thought I was posting in the "off Topic" forum when I posted the comment.

[Caractacus]

Besides how many people in history you know that still have the word "coward" directly associated with their name over 125 years after the fact ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RwAWZtK5Uw

[Crease]

Ike Ibeauchi didn't exactly kill himself to make the big fights happen...
Nor did Francesco Damiani.

[keithmoonhangover]

Editors Note - When Leonard beat Hagler, Nunn had never beaten a ranked fighter and was barely ranked himself. It would be very difficult to find a human being who was talking about a Leonard-Nunn fight at the time.
McCallum was still a Jr. Middleweight. There was little talk of a McCallum-Leonard fight. When McCallum fought his first fight at middleweight, he lost to Sumbu Kalambay.

[gp.]

Besides how many people in history you know that still have the word "coward" directly associated with their name over 125 years after the fact ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RwAWZtK5Uw

That title is ironic. I presume you either haven't seen the film, or misunderstood it. Essentially, in the film, James manipulates Ford into killing him.

I'll ask you again, if you actually want to kill somebody, then why on earth would you do it in a way that gives them a chance to kill you and get away with whatever it was that made you want to kill them in first place? If you want to eat a bull, you don't give it a chance to kill you. You're not competing against the bull, you just want it dead for a purpose. If however you are trying to prove yourself a brave man, you fight the bull in a way that gives at least a semblance of competition. The two things are different. It's not cowardly to buy a pack of hamburgers; nobody comes out yelling at you that you should have given the animal a fair chance.

[Caractacus]

Yeah, your right.I never saw the movie.
Mainly because I hate phoney Hollywood re-visionism.

[APerno]

Yeah, your right.I never saw the movie.
Mainly because I hate phoney Hollywood re-visionism.

I have always wondered if Jesse and Frank James weren't betraying their own gang members to the authorities; it would explain how Jesse and Frank kept making these miraculous escapes while their gang members kept being killed or captured; it would also explain Frank's pardon. But its just my speculation and God knows I am offending many who believed that the psychopathic James brothers were somehow heroes. They weren't, they were just thieves and killers, nothing more.

[Tomasino]

No man who gets in a ring is a coward... However... The most cowardly performance... Without question, Charlie Zelenoff in his pro debut against 1-13 (all 13 losses by way of knockout) Andrew Hartley in Paris, Arkansas in 2008.

After several months of nonstop YouTube video challenges, claims of an amateur record, and insane stalkeresque posts on every boxing site known to man... He got his chance on Stacy Goodson's shows... Less than 1:30 of the first round he spit out his mouth piece three times.

The rest as they say is history. He never fought again, although he now claims a 200-0-0 record in "real boxing" matches as he has somehow created this alternate reality that professional boxing is fake and all champions are really actors.

You and him are even. Two of a kind, fake boxers.

This sport has far more people in it like Zelenoff, myself, Hartley, Strege, etc than it does legitimate fighters of all around capabilities. Without the third tier and second tier class, there most certainly wouldn't be much in development in boxing: or at the very least someone to work with to keep you winning and inflate that record, to keep you in the news feed.

As for him and I being Two of a Kind, I take exception to that considering Zelenoff ran away from (at the time) the worst active boxer in the world and quit, never to box again: whereas I didn't run, and took the beating like a man from a solid prospect and from time to time still mix it up (albeit in gym/backyard brawls and exhibition bouts) and still looking to do pro contests that suit me.

Let's be fair here Rufus. Hartley is a much man better than both of you. To say there are more guys like you and Zelenoff is ridiculous. Also, boxing doesn't need frauds like you and Chuck, it chewed you up and spat you out. Stop kidding yourself.

[HomicideHenry]

No, I don't believe that. With all due respect. I have maintained and still maintain that the 5'4" 150 pound 67" reach Hartley could not touch me, let alone beat me at 5'10" with a 75" reach. He was was a man who literally showed up 29 times, and found a soft spot on the canvas with his hand out. It's pretty bad when the only person you can beat is Zelenoff.

[Tomasino]

No, I don't believe that. With all due respect. I have maintained and still maintain that the 5'4" 150 pound 67" reach Hartley could not touch me, let alone beat me at 5'10" with a 75" reach. He was was a man who literally showed up 29 times, and found a soft spot on the canvas with his hand out. It's pretty bad when the only person you can beat is Zelenoff.

I'd bet Zelenoff against you and I'm sure most of the forum would too. Remember the trailer park thread? Hartley called you out and you ran.

[Caractacus]

Yeah, your right.I never saw the movie.
Mainly because I hate phoney Hollywood re-visionism.

I have always wondered if Jesse and Frank James weren't betraying their own gang members to the authorities; it would explain how Jesse and Frank kept making these miraculous escapes while their gang members kept being killed or captured; it would also explain Frank's pardon. But its just my speculation and God knows I am offending many who believed that the psychopathic James brothers were somehow heroes. They weren't, they were just thieves and killers, nothing more.

Maybe so,but the main thing was that they were sticking it to THE MAN.
(like John Dillinger did some 50 years later).

[Kalan]

Ike Ibeauchi didn't exactly kill himself to make the big fights happen...
Nor did Francesco Damiani.

Damiani was horrible... Ibeabuchi not only MADE big fights happen, he got all UD's and KO's. He was a very formidable athlete -- big, rock solid, and fast.

When Ibeabuchi was 16-0 he fought 27-0 David Tua who was highly favored. That wasn't the greatest match-up to get a prospect to 20-0.. They both landed crisp, tight, explosive combinations, but Ibeabuchi fought at a record pace. Ike never blinked. He won an easy UD without turning a hair. It was nothing like Foreman-Lyle for instance -- where both clumsy big men threw punches from center field and looked like 2 of the rankest amateurs who ever entered a ring.

When Ike was 19-0 he fought super skilled 26-0 master boxer Chris Byrd -- the style of boxer who beats clumsy swingers. Chris knew Ike was green and lacked an extensive amateur background -- however Chris did nothing but run and throw pipping, nothing shots while the fight lasted. Surprisingly, Ibeabuchi landed more punches than the elusive slickster and showed faster hands.. Byrd's punches had no more effect on the brutal Ibeabuchi than light rain on a duck.. Ike laughed as he trapped Byrd on the ropes and worked him over with combinations to the head and body displaying blazing fast hand speed. The Nigerian strong boy finished the little tyke with a deceptive 45 -- in 4 rounds and change.. Ike was substantially improved from the rook who fought Tua.

Byrd vs prime Tua??? ... The Tuaman had a killer punch and a chin that didn't quit, but lacked defensive finesse... Chris had few problems mastering him.

[HomicideHenry]

No, I don't believe that. With all due respect. I have maintained and still maintain that the 5'4" 150 pound 67" reach Hartley could not touch me, let alone beat me at 5'10" with a 75" reach. He was was a man who literally showed up 29 times, and found a soft spot on the canvas with his hand out. It's pretty bad when the only person you can beat is Zelenoff.

I'd bet Zelenoff against you and I'm sure most of the forum would too. Remember the trailer park thread? Hartley called you out and you ran.

Money is everything Tomasino. At the time I had none and no insurance. So paying for my own transportation, hotel, food, blood work, physical, eye exam, etc was just not doable. Since that time I have acquired the dilated eye exam, physical, etc. and renewed my federal ID and as stated previously in another thread I have competed since, and I am still looking to fight Hartley. Whether he wants to or not is on him, not on me.

As for Zelenoff... He's scared shitless to leave his house let alone fight someone legitimately... Dontcha know he pays people to let him hit them once and he claims it as a win? Get real.

[Kalan]

I don't think we should be talking about people with zero talent.. zero ambition.. zero coaching.. zero training.. and zero prospects of making it.

As for Boxing needing 5th rate swingers??? You think "the sport" requires bums to build up the phony records of 200 lame ass prospects in each division??? This hurts Boxing... Even when you see a 2nd rate High School Gymnastics competition the worst athletes have skills and can do their routines...because they practice several hours a day.. The worst High School basketball teams put SOME semblance of a basketball team on the floor. Even if they get run over by the other High School teams they can dribble, pass, run the floor, and run some messed up plays. All the guys who won't work hard are cut from the team.. They're only going to put serious athletes into an actual game no matter how bad they are.

Boxing is the only sport where you see "athletes" who don't have any basic skills allowed to go out there and swing -- just so they can get some 2nd rate athlete who can't box a lick, 20 straight wins. Boxing is one of the least respected sports...and for good reason. Because they match "prospects" so they can get them a long and phony winning streak before they put them into a real fight... It's not "The fix is in" so much as "The mismatch is in."

[APerno]

I don't think we should be talking about people with zero talent.. zero ambition.. zero coaching.. zero training.. and zero prospects of making it.

As for Boxing needing 5th rate swingers??? You think "the sport" requires bums to build up the phony records of 200 lame ass prospects in each division??? This hurts Boxing... Even when you see a 2nd rate High School Gymnastics competition the worst athletes have skills and can do their routines...because they practice several hours a day.. The worst High School basketball teams put SOME semblance of a basketball team on the floor. Even if they get run over by the other High School teams they can dribble, pass, run the floor, and run some messed up plays. All the guys who won't work hard are cut from the team.. They're only going to put serious athletes into an actual game no matter how bad they are.

Boxing is the only sport where you see "athletes" who don't have any basic skills allowed to go out there and swing -- just so they can get some 2nd rate athlete who can't box a lick, 20 straight wins. Boxing is one of the least respected sports...and for good reason. Because they match "prospects" so they can get them a long and phony winning streak before they put them into a real fight... It's not "The fix is in" so much as "The mismatch is in."

BUMS!

Prize fighting isn't a 'sport' and they are not 'athletes,' they are men fighting for money. No one in this society wants to admit what is actually going on, that's why when one guy punches another guy in the face some stupid announcer will always say something stupid like "he is scoring points." No, he isn't scoring 'points' what he is actually doing is punching another man in the face. Love it for what it is and stop trying to make it something it isn't.

Yes good boxing skills are an advantage, but out boxing your opponent is not the ultimate goal, beating your opponent into submission is, (the worst thing to happen to prize fighting was the introduction of judges [mainly just to appease the gamblers, and today TV]). Fighters don't owe us anything for our money except a fight, and how they prepare for that fight is their decision not yours; there is no proper standard for getting ready to fight; if a fighter doesn't want to learn how to box that is his decision, not yours; there is only winning and losing, and since the fighter is the one taking the punches, and not you, it isn't your place to call anyone who steps into the ring, a bum. You might be happier watching the amateurs.

If prize fighting was what you purport it to be then when one fighter gets knocked down they wouldn't count over him, they would help him up, give him time to recover and then go back to the game, like they do in football. But that isn't what happens because prize fighting isn't about boxing skills, it is about the fighting. Really you would be much happier watching the amateurs.

And please don't compare these great men to that childlike nonsense called basketball. Becoming proficient at putting a round ball through a round hoop is (in my opinion) a silly endeavor; that's probably why they call it a 'game.' We are 'fight' fans, that is why we come together, to watch men fight, not to play a game. Stop calling fighters bums. If you don't like it, don't watch, prize fighting will get along without you.

And now that I have explained it to you, know your place, stop calling fighters bums; no fighter deserves that moniker.

Hey that was a pretty good rant, almost as good as some of yours; I wonder if I actually believe it.

[Kalan]

Yes good boxing skills are an advantage, but out boxing your opponent is not the ultimate goal, beating your opponent into submission is, (the worst thing to happen to prize fighting was the introduction of judges [mainly just to appease the gamblers, and today TV]). Fighters don't owe us anything for our money except a fight, and how they prepare for that fight is their decision not yours; there is no proper standard for getting ready to fight; if a fighter doesn't want to learn how to box that is his decision, not yours; there is only winning and losing, and since the fighter is the one taking the punches, and not you, it isn't your place to call anyone who steps into the ring, a bum. You might be happier watching the amateurs.

If prize fighting was what you purport it to be then when one fighter gets knocked down they wouldn't count over him, they would help him up, give him time to recover and then go back to the game, like they do in football. But that isn't what happens because prize fighting isn't about boxing skills, it is about the fighting. Really you would be much happier watching the amateurs.

And please don't compare these great men to that childlike nonsense called basketball. Becoming proficient at putting a round ball through a round hoop is (in my opinion) a silly endeavor; that's probably why they call it a 'game.' We are 'fight' fans, that is why we come together, to watch men fight, not to play a game. Stop calling fighters bums. If you don't like it, don't watch, prize fighting will get along without you.

And now that I have explained it to you, know your place, stop calling fighters bums; no fighter deserves that moniker.

Hey that was a pretty good rant, almost as good as some of yours; I wonder if I actually believe it.

LMAO!!! ... You KNEW you didn’t believe it...cuz it's BULLCRAP!!! ... At its purist Boxing IS a sport -- a very magnificent and noble sport attracting brilliant athletes. When you floor an opponent do you jump on him and beat him into the canvas as you do in MMA? ... Hell NO ... Help him up??? Be serious APerno. So you can hit him again???

The Queensberry Rules sought to bring Boxing out of the dark ages – and one day in 500 years or so they may succeed in doing that – because they’re a brilliant set of rules if they’re taken seriously – such as Gene Tunney, Salvador Sanchez, Eder Jofre, Vasyl Lomachenko, and Mikey Garcia take them... Boxing is not a “fight” after all – it’s pugilism. MMA is fighting.

Joshua vs Klitschko represents what Boxing could be and should be all about: No holding.. no head butting.. no grabbing.. no wrestling.. no pushing.. no low blows.. no foul blows.. no palming etc., Almost all the rules were observed by the combatants.. Everybody who witnessed that fight saw what Boxing could be if it were taken seriously by all the athletes.. all the officials.. all the promoters.. and all the governing bodies.. Both athletes showed the other the utmost mutual respect throughout the promotion, fight, and aftermath … and showed us what SPORT is all about.

Golovkin vs Alvarez was well fought – but marred by corrupt officials and animus.

At its worst Boxing is a scam.. a fraud.. a con.. a swindle.. and human trafficking ... At its vilest, Boxing is no better than smuggling.. moon shining.. drug trafficking.. pimping prostitutes.. dog fighting.. cock fighting.. and the slave trade.. At various times and locations in human history, all these crimes were codified in law with the stroke of a pen.. As creatures of free will, humans are free to transgress natural law to any degree we please – and in the business of Boxing we take this to extremes.

BTW, I love Basketball.. You shouldn't be so narrow. It's a fabulous and growing global sport.. Does it have problems??? Some. Not as many as Boxing. And also, Boxing IS a game... It used to be called "The Fight Game"

And you DO play Boxing like any other sport or game.. Who said, "I'm playing chess... All these other guys are playing checkers."