All time top 10 Super Middleweight thread.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 06 Apr 2006, 05:45

Calzaghe above Benn on what basis?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 05:48

Longevity, staying unbeaten, never being knocked out, and the fact I think Calzaghe would have beaten Benn too. Calzaghe has always loved guys who come forward, and Benn had a shaky chin, I can see him getting badly drilled by Calzaghe.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 06 Apr 2006, 05:57

And Benn wouldn't have stayed unbeaten if he'd fought Mkrtchan, Pudwill, Ashira, Salem, Jimenez etc?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 06:17

Well, let's not forget the Logan fight, with Benn, anything was possible. Benn was far less consistent an operator. Would Benn have beaten Lacy? The temptation now is to say how overrated Lacy was, but Lacy had the power to stop Benn dead in his tracks.

For that matter, would Benn have beaten Reid? Benn wasn't great against counterpunchers. Benn lost to Malinga don't forget, who was about the same level a fighter as Reid, with a similarly frustrating style. I know this was post McClellan, but let's not forget Benn's absolute pasting at the hands of Watson either.

Let's not forget that McClellan was a natural light middleweight who had raced through the weights too fast, and had Benn in a world of trouble.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 06 Apr 2006, 06:58

Benn must be lucky to come in a top ten. He had a draw vs Eubank and losses vs Collins, Sugar Boy Malinga(Why is he not mentioned?) and Eubank. Ottke achieved more.

1. Calzaghe
2. Ottke
3. Collins
4. Eubank
5.. Rocky
6. Beyer
7. Malinga
8. Christophe Tiozzo
9. Chong Pal Park
10. Kessler

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Apr 2006, 07:03

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Let's not forget that McClellan was a natural light middleweight who had raced through the weights too fast, and had Benn in a world of trouble.

eh?

I know McClellan was a former middleweight but he was still a huge S/M. His frame was massive. He was also one of the biggest punchers to strap em on around 11 6/12 st

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 06 Apr 2006, 07:18

its a very hard one to call.all really good fighters.the top 4 would feature rjj,eubank,toney and calzaghe.collins and benn would be top 10 but they dont make top 4 due to collins' big wins coming over fighters who were past it(calzaghe would have completly schooled him had they fought in 97)i love nigel benn but cant put him above the previous 4 mentioned.for what it's worth,if all them 4 were to have met in their respective primes it would read 1.rjj 2.eubank 3.calzaghe 4.toney

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 06 Apr 2006, 07:34

I don´t know why James "Trashtalking Mothafocka" Toney and Chicken de la Tortilla-Kournikova are the most overrated boxers of all times.......

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Apr 2006, 07:47

These things are really hard to judge - does SRL deserve inclusion on the basis of one fight (no, would be my answer..)

I would have Jones No1 , Toney No2 (based on ability as opposed to successful defences or longeviety at the weight) then probably Eubank, Benn, Calzaghe in that order. Beyond that top 5 its a case of juggling around deserving cases.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:06

Terence wrote:I hate top tens as it is all relative; are you judging on achievement (in which case Calzaghe is #1, Ottke #2 although they both deserve a slam for not fighting one another and acting like kids and Chong-Pal Park deserves a mention for getting the ball rolling); are we judging on skills (James Toney and Roy Jones piss this one); opponents fought (Eubank and Benn score well on this) or, the most vital ingredient, are we judging on beating a faded Eubank and Benn calling out an ancient Leonard saying you are better than Hagler then retiring when a challenge arrives (in which case step forwards Steve "Best fighter on Any Island not just Ireland, was Eubank in Lock, Stock and Five fugazi Mockney's?" Collins).

I'd go for Toney for the simple reason that all things being equal (and with no weight problems) I think he is the best of the bunch. Calzaghe in terms of skill is not in the race in regards to Toney/Jones. Then Jones. Calzaghe/Ottke. Benn. Eubank. The rest I'm not too sure about. Certainly the five mentioned are high achievers in the division. People say Toney did not do much there but he fought better opposition in a few years than many managed in an entire stay in the div'. Richie Woodhall went beyond his means and I respect that. Watson, tragedy not forthcoming, would have been awesome at the weight IMO.

As for McClellan I watched the fight the other night for an article and he did look dry at the weight. He must have been tight at SM yet his arms are pretty slender, huge shoulders but still he looked a comfortable SM; maybe he had a huge cock.

If he was dry then it was possibly because he was overtrained. He came in at 165, and despite being broad shouldered, Benn looked the bigger man on the night.

As you say, his arms were pretty slender and he wasn't particularly muscular.

I think that McClellan's abilities need to be put into perspective, looking through his career, the most notable name is of course Julian Jackson and John Mugabi, who I seem to recall at the time being pretty fucked due to eye damage sustained during the Hagler fight.

McClellan also had numerous problems in the build up to the fight, and didn't have Steward there for reasons I forget now.

Not taking anything from Benn who was one of my favourite fighters of the era, but McClellan was not a proven commodity at SM, and even Benn said that himself, which is why he fancies the job.

As you say, it is very subjective, which is why when ever I compile a top 10, I always list the criteria I judge by, otherwise it's meaningless.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:11

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

If he was dry then it was possibly because he was overtrained. He came in at 165, and despite being broad shouldered, Benn looked the bigger man on the night.

As you say, his arms were pretty slender and he wasn't particularly muscular.

I think that McClellan's abilities need to be put into perspective, looking through his career, the most notable name is of course Julian Jackson and John Mugabi, who I seem to recall at the time being pretty fucked due to eye damage sustained during the Hagler fight.

McClellan also had numerous problems in the build up to the fight, and didn't have Steward there for reasons I forget now.

Not taking anything from Benn who was one of my favourite fighters of the era, but McClellan was not a proven commodity at SM, and even Benn said that himself, which is why he fancies the job.

As you say, it is very subjective, which is why when ever I compile a top 10, I always list the criteria I judge by, otherwise it's meaningless.[/quote]

"They brought him over here to bash me up" - Benn immediately after the fight.

Lets not revise history here - McClellan was a marauding monster when he came to the UK - a feared and respected championship fighter.

Few gave Benn much of a chance and the way he came back from that first round shellacking is the stuff of legend.

RJJ didnt want any part of McClellan and I diont think it was solely because they were old amateur adversaries and 'friends'.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:27

I'm not saying McClellan was shit, far from it, just saying, correctly, that he wasn't proven at SM, whereas Benn was. Yes, he was a fearsome puncher, but he showed against Benn that he had little else in his arsenal aside from that monstrous power.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:33

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well, let's not forget the Logan fight, with Benn, anything was possible. Benn was far less consistent an operator. Would Benn have beaten Lacy? The temptation now is to say how overrated Lacy was, but Lacy had the power to stop Benn dead in his tracks.

For that matter, would Benn have beaten Reid? Benn wasn't great against counterpunchers. Benn lost to Malinga don't forget, who was about the same level a fighter as Reid, with a similarly frustrating style. I know this was post McClellan, but let's not forget Benn's absolute pasting at the hands of Watson either.

Let's not forget that McClellan was a natural light middleweight who had raced through the weights too fast, and had Benn in a world of trouble.

Would Benn have beaten Lacy, yes- Lacy isn't exactly hard to hit and Benn hits harder than Joe - Benn would have stopped Lacy in a thriller.

Would Benn have beaten Reid, yes - No, Reid wasn't in the class of Sugar Boy Malinga - a past it Malinga beat Reid, Malinga beat a past it Nigel Benn (although won fight one for my money too).

Benn would have outwork Reid who only throws one shot at a time. You need to beat Benn with combinations, Reid doesn't offer them. I do think Joe would have beaten Benn, his chin is too good and is workrate is exceptional. Size is another factor, despite the McClellan win - Benn was at his best at Middleweight, Joe is a huge Super Middleweight. Although pound 4 pound I would say Benn was better - but thats how close I think it is between them.

However, Joe was not a big a Steve Collins was and thats why I would tip Collins, I think a prime Eubank would have beaten Joe too.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:38

I'd only rate Jones at Light Heavyweight since thats were he'd done the most out of any weight classes.

All he did at Middle and Super Middle thats worth mentioning is Hopkins and Toney and Toney messed his conditioning up.

Hopkins lost by closer scores though.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:43

stujones wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well, let's not forget the Logan fight, with Benn, anything was possible. Benn was far less consistent an operator. Would Benn have beaten Lacy? The temptation now is to say how overrated Lacy was, but Lacy had the power to stop Benn dead in his tracks.

For that matter, would Benn have beaten Reid? Benn wasn't great against counterpunchers. Benn lost to Malinga don't forget, who was about the same level a fighter as Reid, with a similarly frustrating style. I know this was post McClellan, but let's not forget Benn's absolute pasting at the hands of Watson either.

Let's not forget that McClellan was a natural light middleweight who had raced through the weights too fast, and had Benn in a world of trouble.
Would Benn have beaten Lacy, yes- Lacy isn't exactly hard to hit and Benn hits harder than Joe - Benn would have stopped Lacy in a thriller.

Would Benn have beaten Reid, yes - No, Reid wasn't in the class of Sugar Boy Malinga - a past it Malinga beat Reid, Malinga beat a past it Nigel Benn (although won fight one for my money too).

Benn would have outwork Reid who only throws one shot at a time. You need to beat Benn with combinations, Reid doesn't offer them. I do think Joe would have beaten Benn, his chin is too good and is workrate is exceptional. Size is another factor, despite the McClellan win - Benn was at his best at Middleweight, Joe is a huge Super Middleweight. Although pound 4 pound I would say Benn was better - but thats how close I think it is between them.

However, Joe was not a big a Steve Collins was and thats why I would tip Collins, I think a prime Eubank would have beaten Joe too.

I think Reid would have had a good shot beating Benn, as he had a very hard dig, and Benn's chin was hardly cast iron.

Joe isn't a huge supermiddleweight, Collins, now THERE was a huge super middleweight, how he got down to 168 is beyond me.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:47

BubiScholz wrote:Benn must be lucky to come in a top ten. He had a draw vs Eubank and losses vs Collins, Sugar Boy Malinga(Why is he not mentioned?) and Eubank. Ottke achieved more.

1. Calzaghe
2. Ottke
3. Collins
4. Eubank
5.. Rocky
6. Beyer
7. Malinga
8. Christophe Tiozzo
9. Chong Pal Park
10. Kessler

Beyer should not be in there. Kessler would definitely rank above him IMO. Would not put Ottke at number 2 either, Collins proved more.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:53

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Joe isn't a huge supermiddleweight, Collins, now THERE was a huge super middleweight, how he got down to 168 is beyond me.

Remember Steve was along time middleweight contender and eventual WBO champ at 11st 6. He was brawny and strong but I think McClellan had the larger frame of the two...

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:56

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
stujones wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well, let's not forget the Logan fight, with Benn, anything was possible. Benn was far less consistent an operator. Would Benn have beaten Lacy? The temptation now is to say how overrated Lacy was, but Lacy had the power to stop Benn dead in his tracks.

For that matter, would Benn have beaten Reid? Benn wasn't great against counterpunchers. Benn lost to Malinga don't forget, who was about the same level a fighter as Reid, with a similarly frustrating style. I know this was post McClellan, but let's not forget Benn's absolute pasting at the hands of Watson either.

Let's not forget that McClellan was a natural light middleweight who had raced through the weights too fast, and had Benn in a world of trouble.
Would Benn have beaten Lacy, yes- Lacy isn't exactly hard to hit and Benn hits harder than Joe - Benn would have stopped Lacy in a thriller.

Would Benn have beaten Reid, yes - No, Reid wasn't in the class of Sugar Boy Malinga - a past it Malinga beat Reid, Malinga beat a past it Nigel Benn (although won fight one for my money too).

Benn would have outwork Reid who only throws one shot at a time. You need to beat Benn with combinations, Reid doesn't offer them. I do think Joe would have beaten Benn, his chin is too good and is workrate is exceptional. Size is another factor, despite the McClellan win - Benn was at his best at Middleweight, Joe is a huge Super Middleweight. Although pound 4 pound I would say Benn was better - but thats how close I think it is between them.

However, Joe was not a big a Steve Collins was and thats why I would tip Collins, I think a prime Eubank would have beaten Joe too.
I think Reid would have had a good shot beating Benn, as he had a very hard dig, and Benn's chin was hardly cast iron.

Joe isn't a huge supermiddleweight, Collins, now THERE was a huge super middleweight, how he got down to 168 is beyond me.

Calzaghe was a light heavy early in his career.

Robin Reid is one of the most overated fighters in Britain IMO.... He beat a very poor champion in Nardiello and scraped past Cherifi - only too lose to Malinga and then to Branco.... Reid's best performance was vs Wharton... but it was only Wharton, and people forget it was only a majority decision that night.

Benn was a different league to Wharton and he would have been different class to Reid. Reid might have wobbled Benn, but he would never have kept him down... He didn't have great finishing skills - most of Ko's were one punchers, and Benn never got floored by a single punch.

Reid gave Calzaghe a good fight (won in my opinion) but that was against a Joe who hadn't sparred and suffered food poisioning - and Calzaghe was toying with him for 4 rounds.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:57

Well, I guess bones are more dense than muscle, but christ, when Collins fought Eubank, he looked absolutely fornicating HUMUNGOUS.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:58

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well, I guess bones are more dense than muscle, but christ, when Collins fought Eubank, he looked absolutely fornicating HUMUNGOUS.

Absolutely, I am agreeing that Collins is bigger than Joe, but Joe was still significantly bigger than Benn. Collins made Benn look tiny.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 06 Apr 2006, 09:00

I'm not a big fan os lists but would i be shot for suggesting Ottke belongs top 5?

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 06 Apr 2006, 09:03

johnswan1 wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:Benn must be lucky to come in a top ten. He had a draw vs Eubank and losses vs Collins, Sugar Boy Malinga(Why is he not mentioned?) and Eubank. Ottke achieved more.

1. Calzaghe
2. Ottke
3. Collins
4. Eubank
5.. Rocky
6. Beyer
7. Malinga
8. Christophe Tiozzo
9. Chong Pal Park
10. Kessler

Beyer should not be in there. Kessler would definitely rank above him IMO. Would not put Ottke at number 2 either, Collins proved more.

Why should Kessler be ranked above Beyer? Both beat Lucas and Thysse, but Markus beat Danny Green who has a similar level as Kessler. Even Joe didn´t box Green. Kessler has only 3 title fights in 3 years, not that much.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 09:16

No way does Kessler belong in the top 10 anything.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 06 Apr 2006, 09:55

BubiScholz wrote:
johnswan1 wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:Benn must be lucky to come in a top ten. He had a draw vs Eubank and losses vs Collins, Sugar Boy Malinga(Why is he not mentioned?) and Eubank. Ottke achieved more.

1. Calzaghe
2. Ottke
3. Collins
4. Eubank
5.. Rocky
6. Beyer
7. Malinga
8. Christophe Tiozzo
9. Chong Pal Park
10. Kessler

Beyer should not be in there. Kessler would definitely rank above him IMO. Would not put Ottke at number 2 either, Collins proved more.
Why should Kessler be ranked above Beyer? Both beat Lucas and Thysse, but Markus beat Danny Green who has a similar level as Kessler. Even Joe didn´t box Green. Kessler has only 3 title fights in 3 years, not that much.

Beyer beat Green in Germany a very close fight, one judge scored it a draw. Kessler beat Mundine in Sydney by a wide margin, even with a score of 120-108 on one card. Mundine fights Green next month and is favourite & therefore rated higher. Beyer has also lost to poor opposition on two occasions. Joe is rated so highly because of his longetivity during an extremely poor era. His biggest wins - Eubank (old), Reid (never an elite fighter) and Lacy (an untested prospect). Doesn't mean Hopkins is the best middleweight ever just because he has by far the most defenses.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 09:55

Yeah, his shots were cuffing arm punches in the 3rd and 4th rounds, it's possible he just punched himself out a bit and lost the snap. After going down himself he looked to have Benn in big trouble and found some big shots.

There's a lot of what if's about that fight.

What if McClellan had Steward there? What if the ref had been competent and hadn't allowed Benn to bend right down from the waist so McClellan couldn't hit him? What if the ref hadn't kept on intervening

I always wonder when the brain injury occured to Gerald, because the way he was pushing out the mouth guard early on was weird. I've heard conflicting reports, some say they lost his mouthguard and got an ill fitting replacement. Steward claimed he was ill, and that he was having trouble breathing before the fight, and that he shouldn't have been in the ring in the 1st place. Then again Manny Steward talks a lot of bollocks these days.

There were so many factors going on in the ring that night, but perhaps the biggest one of all was Benn's absolute refusal to capitulate under a fearful onslaught from a man regarded at the time as an unstoppable monster.