All time top 10 Super Middleweight thread.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 06 Apr 2006, 09:58

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yeah, his shots were cuffing arm punches in the 3rd and 4th rounds, it's possible he just punched himself out a bit and lost the snap. After going down himself he looked to have Benn in big trouble and found some big shots.

There's a lot of what if's about that fight.

What if McClellan had Steward there? What if the ref had been competent and hadn't allowed Benn to bend right down from the waist so McClellan couldn't hit him? What if the ref hadn't kept on intervening

I always wonder when the brain injury occured to Gerald, because the way he was pushing out the mouth guard early on was weird. I've heard conflicting reports, some say they lost his mouthguard and got an ill fitting replacement. Steward claimed he was ill, and that he was having trouble breathing before the fight, and that he shouldn't have been in the ring in the 1st place. Then again Manny Steward talks a lot of bollocks these days.

There were so many factors going on in the ring that night, but perhaps the biggest one of all was Benn's absolute refusal to capitulate under a fearful onslaught from a man regarded at the time as an unstoppable monster.

I've seen Gerald doing that with the mouthguard before. It may have been the first fight against Julian Jackson. I think he was the later rounds when he began to blink continuously when he started realising something bad was happening.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:01

It was the 1st fight where Jackson laid a serious beatdown on him early on wasn't it? Wonder whether he picked up some sort of injury there that wasn't picked up?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:08

BubiScholz didn't Lucas get robbed against Beyer?

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:14

Watt's criticism of McClellan at the end of the fight, claiming he had a 'heart' problem was very unfortunate and poorly timed, in retrospect.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:19

jamesmcdonnell wrote:It was the 1st fight where Jackson laid a serious beatdown on him early on wasn't it? Wonder whether he picked up some sort of injury there that wasn't picked up?

Yeah that's the one. Gerard took a count in that fight early on. I think it was down to him not being used to using up so much energy in fights (didn't something like 20 of his 27/28 wins come in the 1st round?), and that left him gasping for air, leaving the gum shield hanging out. In an interview before the Benn fight he is going on about how nobody will go past six rounds with him.

I've heard numerous stories about Gerald, don't know how many of them, if any, are true. I heard a story about him driving over a flamingo in his car for fun, another about him pulling the dog out of a fight and shooting it in the head and another about how he said his dream was to put another man in a coma.

I'm not sure if himself and Roy were close but I know Gerald beat Roy in the amateurs and he was calling him out a lot at the time. I doubt Roy would have wanted any of him but probably would have beaten him had they met. I know Hopkins has been to visit him since being permanently injured - I don't think Roy Jones had though, I'm sure he openly said he didn't want to see him like that until he was finished his own career.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:20

Max Molyneux wrote:BubiScholz didn't Lucas get robbed against Beyer?

The same Lucas Kessler dished out a hiding to.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:33

johnswan1 wrote: I've heard numerous stories about Gerald, don't know how many of them, if any, are true. I heard a story about him driving over a flamingo in his car for fun, another about him pulling the dog out of a fight and shooting it in the head and another about how he said his dream was to put another man in a coma.

Gerald was a sick puppy alright (excuse the pun) who had a penchant for dog fighting and was apparently ruthless when it came to this underground sport.

Animal lovers and those who believe in karma may draw conclusions about his present state and former lust for violence.

The book 'War Baby' focuses heavily on the Benn-McClellan clash.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:36

Max Molyneux wrote:BubiScholz didn't Lucas get robbed against Beyer?

How any of the judges gave any of rounds 1-4 to Beyer that night was beyond me. Talk about corrupt scoring. And as much of a Kessler fan as i am i really don't think you can include him a greatest Super Middleweight's of all time list, not yet anyway.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:36

johnswan1 wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:It was the 1st fight where Jackson laid a serious beatdown on him early on wasn't it? Wonder whether he picked up some sort of injury there that wasn't picked up?
Yeah that's the one. Gerard took a count in that fight early on. I think it was down to him not being used to using up so much energy in fights (didn't something like 20 of his 27/28 wins come in the 1st round?), and that left him gasping for air, leaving the gum shield hanging out. In an interview before the Benn fight he is going on about how nobody will go past six rounds with him.

I've heard numerous stories about Gerald, don't know how many of them, if any, are true. I heard a story about him driving over a flamingo in his car for fun, another about him pulling the dog out of a fight and shooting it in the head and another about how he said his dream was to put another man in a coma.

I'm not sure if himself and Roy were close but I know Gerald beat Roy in the amateurs and he was calling him out a lot at the time. I doubt Roy would have wanted any of him but probably would have beaten him had they met. I know Hopkins has been to visit him since being permanently injured - I don't think Roy Jones had though, I'm sure he openly said he didn't want to see him like that until he was finished his own career.

The quotes about the flamingo's and the dog incident were from a former manager who had an axe to grind, so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Roy and Gerald were apparently pretty good friends, though there was a lot of talk about a potential showdown.

I doubt Gerald would have gotten near Jones at SM, think he would have gotten his ass handed to him bigtime. If a relatively crude mauler like Benn, who was not even a big SM was able to get to him, I think Jones would have hurt him. At SM, Jones could punch very solidly indeed.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:43

Max Molyneux wrote:BubiScholz didn't Lucas get robbed against Beyer?

everybody got robbed in Germany

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:46

They way Jones demolished Malinga, Thornton, Byrd, Brannon and Sosa at 12st tell you all you need to know about his fire power at this weight. OK, they aren’t the elite of the elite, but it’s the manner of his victories that sets him apart.

12st was his best weight in my eyes. He was a little undersized/under powered at Light Heavy but at 12st he was a perfectly balanced fighter.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:49

Yep, definetly his best weight, he was a massive middle and a big SM, but not a particularly big Light heavy, he lost his power at LH, except for the occasional flash like the shot he stopped Hill with, he didn't have the power to knock people out at LH, usually just beating them up. He did quite a number on our clinton, and was it Derrick Harmon he zapped with that behind the back number?

Jones was a puncher at Middle and SM.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:51

TerribleTerry wrote:They way Jones demolished Malinga, Thornton, Byrd, Brannon and Sosa at 12st tell you all you need to know about his fire power at this weight. OK, they aren’t the elite of the elite, but it’s the manner of his victories that sets him apart.

12st was his best weight in my eyes. He was a little undersized/under powered at Light Heavy but at 12st he was a perfectly balanced fighter.

Agree. Although he didn't fight for very long at this weight, I'd probably rank Jones the best Super Middleweight ever. Although he may have fought more at LHW, it wasn't a natural weight for him.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:54

jamesmcdonnell wrote:, and was it Derrick Harmon he zapped with that behind the back number?

It was the aussie Glenn Kelly

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 06 Apr 2006, 10:58

TerribleTerry wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:, and was it Derrick Harmon he zapped with that behind the back number?
It was the aussie Glenn Kelly

He basically played with Kelly for 6 rounds and ended it in spectacular fashion in the 7th.

If anyone has the chance to see the interview between RJ and Hopkins after Hopkins beat Trinidad, and before RJ fought Kelly, I suggest you sit down and witness a classic verbal sparring.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 06 Apr 2006, 15:17

http://www.BS.com/?m=show&id=3485

Well-argued, even though such rankings are a difficult business.

Except for the #1 - obviously RJJ - all other positions can be allocated in various ways. I would have Collins, Ottke and Benn # 2-4, but how to exactly order them I don't know (maybe in this order). Then come the Calzaghes and Eubanks - exciting but with persitent doubts about the quality of their opposition. Calzaghe can recitify this and climb further of course - only RJJ is the limit - if he takes a few more meaningful fights.

Another tricky question: should one rank Toney? I dunno, but if you do he must be way up. Finally, Kessler has great potential, but he hasn't been around long enough to be included in an evergreat list. I'd rather include Rocchigiani or Michael Nunn.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 06 Apr 2006, 16:50

Beating Toney doesn't make him the best at that weight.

I'd olny rate Jones at Light Heavy. Roy was very contriversial though.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 06 Apr 2006, 17:48

Mattyp151 wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:, and was it Derrick Harmon he zapped with that behind the back number?
It was the aussie Glenn Kelly
He basically played with Kelly for 6 rounds and ended it in spectacular fashion in the 7th.

If anyone has the chance to see the interview between RJ and Hopkins after Hopkins beat Trinidad, and before RJ fought Kelly, I suggest you sit down and witness a classic verbal sparring.

you mean after Hopkins-Daniels?

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 06 Apr 2006, 17:52

viciousmaussa wrote:
Mattyp151 wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote: It was the aussie Glenn Kelly
He basically played with Kelly for 6 rounds and ended it in spectacular fashion in the 7th.

If anyone has the chance to see the interview between RJ and Hopkins after Hopkins beat Trinidad, and before RJ fought Kelly, I suggest you sit down and witness a classic verbal sparring.
you mean after Hopkins-Daniels?

Shit, I thought it was Trinidad...oh, it was a replay of that fight, and then they showed the verbal sparring, then Kelly/Jones Jr. My mistake.

fist · Post by **fist** » 06 Apr 2006, 21:00

pundit wrote:http://www.BS.com/?m=show&id=3485

Well-argued, even though such rankings are a difficult business.

Except for the #1 - obviously RJJ - all other positions can be allocated in various ways. I would have Collins, Ottke and Benn # 2-4, but how to exactly order them I don't know (maybe in this order). Then come the Calzaghes and Eubanks - exciting but with persitent doubts about the quality of their opposition. Calzaghe can recitify this and climb further of course - only RJJ is the limit - if he takes a few more meaningful fights.

Another tricky question: should one rank Toney? I dunno, but if you do he must be way up. Finally, Kessler has great potential, but he hasn't been around long enough to be included in an evergreat list. I'd rather include Rocchigiani or Michael Nunn.

Collins at 2?

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 06 Apr 2006, 21:34

fist wrote:
pundit wrote:http://www.BS.com/?m=show&id=3485

Well-argued, even though such rankings are a difficult business.

Except for the #1 - obviously RJJ - all other positions can be allocated in various ways. I would have Collins, Ottke and Benn # 2-4, but how to exactly order them I don't know (maybe in this order). Then come the Calzaghes and Eubanks - exciting but with persitent doubts about the quality of their opposition. Calzaghe can recitify this and climb further of course - only RJJ is the limit - if he takes a few more meaningful fights.

Another tricky question: should one rank Toney? I dunno, but if you do he must be way up. Finally, Kessler has great potential, but he hasn't been around long enough to be included in an evergreat list. I'd rather include Rocchigiani or Michael Nunn.
Collins at 2?

I'm suprised how many people forget Collins these days, he would be my number 3.

1 Jones
2. Calzaghe
3 Collins
4 Eubank
5 Benn.

Toney at 6?

Deram · Post by **Deram** » 06 Apr 2006, 22:52

Current ALL-TIME top 10 Supermiddle Weight

1. Calzaghe
2. Eubank
3. Collins
4. Malinga
5. Benn
6. Kessler
7. Park
8. Beyer
9. Lukas
10. Toney

NB. I am not rating Jones (although he is one of my favorite fighters, simply because he was way to short at 168).

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 01:15

* calazaghe is becoming horribly overated because of his win over jeff "unproven overhyped" lacy

heres my top 6

1) Roy Jones jr
2) Joe Choynski
3) tommy burns
4) Nigel Benn
5) Eubank
6) Toney

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 07 Apr 2006, 03:07

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:* calazaghe is becoming horribly overated because of his win over jeff "unproven overhyped" lacy

heres my top 6

1) Roy Jones jr
2) Joe Choynski
3) tommy burns
4) Nigel Benn
5) Eubank
6) Toney

Wrong, Calzaghe has always been thought of as a great boxer. The Lacy fight just clarified this.

Who else has been world champion at SMW for 9 years including 18 defences?

Yeh thats right, no one.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 03:24

im not impressed with calzaghe on film. he has horribly punching technique.