John Mugabi vs. Roberto Duran

[BoxBuzz]

More of your stupidity and kidding around. You know Duran was no ring genius or Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims wouldn't have beaten him. Leonard wouldn't have made him quit with Duran only a point or 2 down in the scoring.. Duran had a stomach ache or something or he wouldn't have quit.. He said after the fight that he had cramps.. I don't know exactly what ailment he had because he never talked about it a whole lot.

Vitali quit because he knew he was wrecking his left shoulder. He told his corner. "The pain is the worst I've ever felt" ... The surgeon who repaired it had never seen a rotator cuff like it and he'd seen 1000's of rotator cuff tears. "It was in two pieces. I've never seen that." You can google it and find out about it instead of making assumptions. The shoulder was slightly injured in training, but he gave it a couple weeks rest and thought he could deal with it. When it started hurting he thought it would go away once he warmed up real good. It got worse instead.

I love how people who aren't in somebody's shoes know all the answers to all their physical conditions. You for instance for somebody you hate.

some Vitali Klitschko opponents and results

Corrie Sanders... 39-2... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Herbie Hide... 31-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... KO 2
Sam Peter... 30-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Tomasz Adamak... 44-1... 2-Division World Champion and never stopped before. KO 10
Juan Carlos Gomez... 44-1... Former World Cruiserweight Champion. KO 9
Odlanier Solis...17-0 undefeated Olympic Gold Medal winner. 1st round KO
Manuel Charr... 21-0 undefeated top ranked contender. Stoppage on cut in 4 rounds
Kevin Johnson... 22-0-1 undefeated top ranked contender. Swept every round on 2 cards
Chris Arreola... 27-0 undefeated top ranked contender. 10 round stoppage
Kirk Johnson... 34-1-1... Only previous loss was a ticky-tac DQ… 2 round KO
Timo Hoffman... 22-0... Bigger and taller than Vitali... Swept every round in 2 cards
Ed Mahone... 21-0-2... Undefeated contender... KO 3
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1... 2-time Heavyweight Champion. Swept every round of UD

Chris Byrd, 30-1... Winning easily on all scorecards when forced to retire due to a completely severed rotator cuff assembly. He entered the ring with a slight tear, thinking he could fight through it, but it soon got a lot worse and Vitali retired after the 9th when he was miles ahead.. BTW Duran also lost a fight due to a shoulder injury -- the Pat Lawlor Fight.. So Duran lost 2 fights to pain or injury.

Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1... VK was winning on all scorecards when it was stopped on cuts on his left eyelid caused by foul blows... If they went to the scorecards Vitali wins Unanimous TD 6

Outside of the emphasis....you have made my point rather well....we have simply reached different conclusions based on the facts of the matter.
One glaring error that you failed to point out (while pointing with pride to those sterling records of some "opponents" .....which does your thesis little good)......is that these days...."good" fighters are protected until a potential payday. Which explains the "good" record that a lot of those bums had.

In Louis's day, good and average fighters had to mix it up with the rest, giving a better read by way of their record.....these days good fighters look like legends......until they fight a slightly better "good" fighter. You know this......but you need your dose of focus factor, or prevegen......take one or two...then come back and thank me for reminding you.

While I got you out on this limb, and the branch is creaking and nearly letting loose,for all to see, detail out the record of Edwin Valero, and why he might be a better fighter than Duran as well.

The two losses, are just that.....losses..

You've been taken to school, education does not come without a cost, and you will want to show your appreciation, and after all, Christmas is just around the corner.

[Kalan]

More of your stupidity and kidding around. You know Duran was no ring genius or Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims wouldn't have beaten him. Leonard wouldn't have made him quit with Duran only a point or 2 down in the scoring.. Duran had a stomach ache or something or he wouldn't have quit.. He said after the fight that he had cramps.. I don't know exactly what ailment he had because he never talked about it a whole lot.

Vitali quit because he knew he was wrecking his left shoulder. He told his corner. "The pain is the worst I've ever felt" ... The surgeon who repaired it had never seen a rotator cuff like it and he'd seen 1000's of rotator cuff tears. "It was in two pieces. I've never seen that." You can google it and find out about it instead of making assumptions. The shoulder was slightly injured in training, but he gave it a couple weeks rest and thought he could deal with it. When it started hurting he thought it would go away once he warmed up real good. It got worse instead.

I love how people who aren't in somebody's shoes know all the answers to all their physical conditions. You for instance for somebody you hate.

some Vitali Klitschko opponents and results

Corrie Sanders... 39-2... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Herbie Hide... 31-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... KO 2
Sam Peter... 30-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Tomasz Adamak... 44-1... 2-Division World Champion and never stopped before. KO 10
Juan Carlos Gomez... 44-1... Former World Cruiserweight Champion. KO 9
Odlanier Solis...17-0 undefeated Olympic Gold Medal winner. 1st round KO
Manuel Charr... 21-0 undefeated top ranked contender. Stoppage on cut in 4 rounds
Kevin Johnson... 22-0-1 undefeated top ranked contender. Swept every round on 2 cards
Chris Arreola... 27-0 undefeated top ranked contender. 10 round stoppage
Kirk Johnson... 34-1-1... Only previous loss was a ticky-tac DQ… 2 round KO
Timo Hoffman... 22-0... Bigger and taller than Vitali... Swept every round in 2 cards
Ed Mahone... 21-0-2... Undefeated contender... KO 3
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1... 2-time Heavyweight Champion. Swept every round of UD

Chris Byrd, 30-1... Winning easily on all scorecards when forced to retire due to a completely severed rotator cuff assembly. He entered the ring with a slight tear, thinking he could fight through it, but it soon got a lot worse and Vitali retired after the 9th when he was miles ahead.. BTW Duran also lost a fight due to a shoulder injury -- the Pat Lawlor Fight.. So Duran lost 2 fights to pain or injury.

Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1... VK was winning on all scorecards when it was stopped on cuts on his left eyelid caused by foul blows... If they went to the scorecards Vitali wins Unanimous TD 6

Outside of the emphasis....you have made my point rather well....we have simply reached different conclusions based on the facts of the matter.
One glaring error that you failed to point out (while pointing with pride to those sterling records of some "opponents" .....which does your thesis little good)......is that these days...."good" fighters are protected until a potential payday. Which explains the "good" record that a lot of those bums had.

In Louis's day, good and average fighters had to mix it up with the rest, giving a better read by way of their record.....these days good fighters look like legends......until they fight a slightly better "good" fighter. You know this......but you need your dose of focus factor, or prevegen......take one or two...then come back and thank me for reminding you.

While I got you out on this limb, and the branch is creaking and nearly letting loose,for all to see, detail out the record of Edwin Valero, and why he might be a better fighter than Duran as well.

The two losses, are just that.....losses..

You've been taken to school, education does not come without a cost, and you will want to show your appreciation, and after all, Christmas is just around the corner

You've never been to any school that teaches boxing.

You've never even had boxing 101 where a world class trainer patiently corrects flaws in your boxing stance and teaches you basic footwork and the science and strategy behind each step you're taking... or corrects your punching form... or teaches you how to feint and set up punches... You've never boxed anybody where paid judges scored the action, much less boxed any world class fighters. You never trained boxers from raw sub novice to polished national champion. You've never had world champion professionals seek your advice and call you a master. So who are you going to take to the school of Boxing??? ... Nobody ... so let class begin.

Losses are not "just losses" ... Losses are more nuanced than you're capable of comprehending.. Losses can be flat out robberies. Losses can be due to unfortunate cuts when you're ahead on points on all scorecards.. Jose Napoles suffered cuts vs Billy Backus. He was able to get a rematch, but some fighters aren't that lucky.. Nobody ever thought Backus was a better fighter than Napoles -- but those same kind of considerations aren't given to Eastern Europeans.. Losses can be due to injury.. Duran injured his shoulder fighting Pat Lawlor and lost.. Nobody ever claimed Pat Lawlor was a better fighter than Duran -- but those same kind of considerations aren't given to Eastern Europeans.

The above are unfortunate losses don't imply or measure the depths of anyone's boxing mastery -- but the below losses do.

Such as Duran getting floored and outpointed by UNANIMOUS DECISION in his 32nd fight when he was Lightweight Champion -- directly after fighting 2 hopeless tomato cans to pad his record... Then there was Duran's loss in the rematch to Ray Leonard when he quit after falling behind on points on all 3 judges' scorecards... There is Duran getting knocked cold of course... Then Duran's loss to Kirkland Laing, who was a Welterweight fighting a Jr Middleweight.. Laing was an ambitious underdog who out-hustled Duran for the decision.

Duran was knocked down a few times -- knocked out on occasion -- and suffered more than a dozen losses -- most of which reflect on his boxing ability.. But I must say Duran was a very fine boxer -- one of the best ever -- but not as good as Vitali Klitschko who Basketball Super Star Kobe Bryant called "a scientist." Klitschko could easily have gone undefeated for his entire career if not for an unfortunate injury and a corrupt referee who warned Lewis for palming Vitali's face -- so he knew damned well fouls contributed to those cuts and it's a TD.

However your mind is completely closed to the idea that Vitali was great. After all, he had legs that were severely injured in Kickboxing and he wasn't as smooth a mover and stepper as Steward coached Wladimir to be. But VK was bigger, taller and tougher than his brother, and his defense was more fearless. He had no fear of getting hit or exchanging punches. Wladimir taught Vitali a technique he learned from Steward for turning the left shoulder and deflecting right hands that Wlad admitted Vitali did better than he. Tomasz Adamek said he could easily get right hands on Michael Grant, who was as big and tall as Klitschko, but couldn't get a single right hand on Vitali, who was 40 years old.

[elmersalsa]

More of your stupidity and kidding around. You know Duran was no ring genius or Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims wouldn't have beaten him. Leonard wouldn't have made him quit with Duran only a point or 2 down in the scoring.. Duran had a stomach ache or something or he wouldn't have quit.. He said after the fight that he had cramps.. I don't know exactly what ailment he had because he never talked about it a whole lot.

Vitali quit because he knew he was wrecking his left shoulder. He told his corner. "The pain is the worst I've ever felt" ... The surgeon who repaired it had never seen a rotator cuff like it and he'd seen 1000's of rotator cuff tears. "It was in two pieces. I've never seen that." You can google it and find out about it instead of making assumptions. The shoulder was slightly injured in training, but he gave it a couple weeks rest and thought he could deal with it. When it started hurting he thought it would go away once he warmed up real good. It got worse instead.

I love how people who aren't in somebody's shoes know all the answers to all their physical conditions. You for instance for somebody you hate.

some Vitali Klitschko opponents and results

Corrie Sanders... 39-2... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Herbie Hide... 31-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... KO 2
Sam Peter... 30-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Tomasz Adamak... 44-1... 2-Division World Champion and never stopped before. KO 10
Juan Carlos Gomez... 44-1... Former World Cruiserweight Champion. KO 9
Odlanier Solis...17-0 undefeated Olympic Gold Medal winner. 1st round KO
Manuel Charr... 21-0 undefeated top ranked contender. Stoppage on cut in 4 rounds
Kevin Johnson... 22-0-1 undefeated top ranked contender. Swept every round on 2 cards
Chris Arreola... 27-0 undefeated top ranked contender. 10 round stoppage
Kirk Johnson... 34-1-1... Only previous loss was a ticky-tac DQ… 2 round KO
Timo Hoffman... 22-0... Bigger and taller than Vitali... Swept every round in 2 cards
Ed Mahone... 21-0-2... Undefeated contender... KO 3
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1... 2-time Heavyweight Champion. Swept every round of UD

Chris Byrd, 30-1... Winning easily on all scorecards when forced to retire due to a completely severed rotator cuff assembly. He entered the ring with a slight tear, thinking he could fight through it, but it soon got a lot worse and Vitali retired after the 9th when he was miles ahead.. BTW Duran also lost a fight due to a shoulder injury -- the Pat Lawlor Fight.. So Duran lost 2 fights to pain or injury.

Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1... VK was winning on all scorecards when it was stopped on cuts on his left eyelid caused by foul blows... If they went to the scorecards Vitali wins Unanimous TD 6

Outside of the emphasis....you have made my point rather well....we have simply reached different conclusions based on the facts of the matter.
One glaring error that you failed to point out (while pointing with pride to those sterling records of some "opponents" .....which does your thesis little good)......is that these days...."good" fighters are protected until a potential payday. Which explains the "good" record that a lot of those bums had.

In Louis's day, good and average fighters had to mix it up with the rest, giving a better read by way of their record.....these days good fighters look like legends......until they fight a slightly better "good" fighter. You know this......but you need your dose of focus factor, or prevegen......take one or two...then come back and thank me for reminding you.

While I got you out on this limb, and the branch is creaking and nearly letting loose,for all to see, detail out the record of Edwin Valero, and why he might be a better fighter than Duran as well.

The two losses, are just that.....losses..

You've been taken to school, education does not come without a cost, and you will want to show your appreciation, and after all, Christmas is just around the corner

You've never been to any school that teaches boxing.

You've never even had boxing 101 where a world class trainer patiently corrects flaws in your boxing stance and teaches you basic footwork and the science and strategy behind each step you're taking... or corrects your punching form... or teaches you how to feint and set up punches... You've never boxed anybody where paid judges scored the action, much less boxed any world class fighters. You never trained boxers from raw sub novice to polished national champion. You've never had world champion professionals seek your advice and call you a master. So who are you going to take to the school of Boxing??? ... Nobody ... so let class begin.

Losses are not "just losses" ... Losses are more nuanced than you're capable of comprehending.. Losses can be flat out robberies. Losses can be due to unfortunate cuts when you're ahead on points on all scorecards.. Jose Napoles suffered cuts vs Billy Backus. He was able to get a rematch, but some fighters aren't that lucky.. Nobody ever thought Backus was a better fighter than Napoles -- but those same kind of considerations aren't given to Eastern Europeans.. Losses can be due to injury.. Duran injured his shoulder fighting Pat Lawlor and lost.. Nobody ever claimed Pat Lawlor was a better fighter than Duran -- but those same kind of considerations aren't given to Eastern Europeans.

The above are unfortunate losses don't imply or measure the depths of anyone's boxing mastery -- but the below losses do.

Such as Duran getting floored and outpointed by UNANIMOUS DECISION in his 32nd fight when he was Lightweight Champion -- directly after fighting 2 hopeless tomato cans to pad his record... Then there was Duran's loss in the rematch to Ray Leonard when he quit after falling behind on points on all 3 judges' scorecards... There is Duran getting knocked cold of course... Then Duran's loss to Kirkland Laing, who was a Welterweight fighting a Jr Middleweight.. Laing was an ambitious underdog who out-hustled Duran for the decision.

Duran was knocked down a few times -- knocked out on occasion -- and suffered more than a dozen losses -- most of which reflect on his boxing ability.. But I must say Duran was a very fine boxer -- one of the best ever -- but not as good as Vitali Klitschko who Basketball Super Star Kobe Bryant called "a scientist." Klitschko could easily have gone undefeated for his entire career if not for an unfortunate injury and a corrupt referee who warned Lewis for palming Vitali's face -- so he knew damned well fouls contributed to those cuts and it's a TD.

However your mind is completely closed to the idea that Vitali was great. After all, he had legs that were severely injured in Kickboxing and he wasn't as smooth a mover and stepper as Steward coached Wladimir to be. But VK was bigger, taller and tougher than his brother, and his defense was more fearless. He had no fear of getting hit or exchanging punches. Wladimir taught Vitali a technique he learned from Steward for turning the left shoulder and deflecting right hands that Wlad admitted Vitali did better than he. Tomasz Adamek said he could easily get right hands on Michael Grant, who was as big and tall as Klitschko, but couldn't get a single right hand on Vitali, who was 40 years old.

Vitali Klitschko was not in the Hands of Stone skillset level

[Kalan]

Why??? Because he never got knocked down...flattened for the count...or badly outboxed like Duran was??? ...

In fact, Vitali was never outboxed, never knocked down, and was always ahead on points after every fight.

[BoxBuzz]

Why??? Because he never got knocked down...flattened for the count...or badly outboxed like Duran was??? ...

In fact, Vitali was never outboxed, never knocked down, and was always ahead on points after every fight.

Well according to you Vitali never faced anyone who was all that good. Not even those he lost to, like Byrd, who you have dressed down, or Lewis who you have shown some respect for, but have reminded us how limited he was....except in any potential face off with the even less impressive Bowe.

[Kalan]

Well... Both Klitschkos would beat Byrd 120 to 105 at their best... Or more likely can his ass.

Both Klitschkos would have beaten Lennox Lewis about 116-112... If they didn't flatten him... That's always a possibility with LL

As for how Lewis and Bryd rank historically??? ... Lewis is about 4th behind Joshua and the K Bros.. Byrd is about 14th.

I don't rank Douglas ahead of Tyson... Or rank Bowe above Holyfield.. Those wins were flukes because those Boys had no ambition, discipline, or drive.. They didn't properly prepare for most of their fights.. You grade folks on their career not 1 foe who fit their strengths 100%.. That would be like ranking Foreman on the Norton fight.. He looked sharp in that one.. Ali couldn't do that.

[Nile4000]

Prime Mugabi beats Duran, possibly stops him late. Hearns outboxes Mugabi, and it's 50/50 with Jackson.