Who was the most skilled heavyweight ever?

[Ambling Alp II]

Funny how James J Corbett never seems to get brought up in stuff like this.

Not funny.

Sad.

Good shout out. Corbett had excellent footwork, defense, and could throw a wide variety of punches. Not a hard hitter, but he was very skillful.

[Kalan]

BIG Jim Jeffries knocked Gent Jim out twice… Little Bob Fitzsimmons KO’d him with a body shot… Paralyzed him with the famed “Solar Plexus Punch.” That was a great shot I've never seen anyone else duplicate to that degree of perfection.

[BitPlayer]

BIG Jim Jeffries knocked Gent Jim out twice… Little Bob Fitzsimmons KO’d him with a body shot… Paralyzed him with the famed “Solar Plexus Punch.” That was a great shot I've never seen anyone else duplicate to that degree of perfection.

Corbett was a shell of his former self in his second fight with Jeffries. In the first he was winning easilly in the 23rd round, when he tried to be too clever for his own good and got caught. But how many fighers can be evasive for over 20 rounds?

And how many heavyweights could outskill not just a middleweight champion, but an ATG middleweight?

[Kalan]

As far as I know, Corbett never beat Jeffries or Fitzsimmons... One much bigger .... One much smaller

Vince Lombardi.... "Winning isn't the MAIN thing .... It's the ONLY thing."

[BitPlayer]

As far as I know, Corbett never beat Jeffries or Fitzsimmons... One much bigger .... One much smaller

Vince Lombardi.... "Winning isn't the MAIN thing .... It's the ONLY thing."

Well in that case he beat Joe Choyenski, Australian Billy Smith, Jake Kilrain, John L Sulivan, Charlie Mitchell, Charles Kid McCoy. WInning is the only thing.

In seriousness though, the source that says that the Charles Kid McCoy fight was fake was a much later new paper account, which are full of things that aren't true. I saw one claim that when Fitz fough Dunkhorst he spent the entire fight sprinting away from him, before turning around and stopping him with one bodyshot.

Edit: Contempory reports make it sound legit.
https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers. ... y-------0-#

[Contendeh]

A lot of good names mentioned. I’d like to add one more. John Tate.
Maybe it’s like a movie that everyone tells you is no good so you don’t watch it. Then one day, you realize you’ve seen Godfather a million times so instead of watching Ali v Frazier for the 100th time you watch something else, that B movie that people told you was no good.

And it really is a big surprise. It’s actually a really good movie.

Tate was 6’4” and had really good, really fluid footwork. Good jab. He had a lot of ring smarts for the few amount of fights he had. He had enough power and size to keep his opppnents honest, even if it wasn’t pure Ko power.
He was referred to as “the fighting machine” a very apt nickname, I think, due to his textbook skills.
He was doing a much, much better job with Weaver than Holmes for 14 rounds and 2:25 seconds. We never got to see Holmes vs Coetzee, but if Holmes was as good with him as John was, it would have improved his legacy.

[Counter-puncher]

Holmes would have whipped Coetzee

[SteveO]

There have been quite a few skilled heavyweights (depends how you want to define it) many mentioned on here.
For me it is Muhammad Ali.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

That's to everyone who didn't say Jack Johnson or Sonny Liston, your initelligence is appreciated.

Ali when he concentrated would be a candidate. Tunney has a good argument. Joe Louis had poor footwork and his defense wasn't very good for a guy rated so highly.

- Sorry Seamy, the Louis defense was better 66 times with 52 KOs over his 3 losses. He had excellent balance because of his excellent footwork that was far more economical and deadly than Ali or Fat Larry when he used to be slim. Louis was scoring points while they were running away.

Can't find a better record than that reinforced with a title record of 27-1 if we count the BBBc titles and White heavy titles of Lee Savald when the title wasn't yet unified by Charles.

Good shouts for Tunney who was incredibly well rounded, and also for Tyson before King and Givens got their hooks into him that found him on very strong and experimental pysch sedatives having just been developed. Tyson took next to zero punishment at his mental peak. Wlad had everything but an inside game, hence the clinching that was more effective than inside fight skills when your that big and strong. Best left hand in the business with about a half dozen different jabs and same with his left hook. Yeah, not a body puncher, but a tall guy don't need the body if he's as powerful and tall as Wlad who with Vitali introduced their own tall man style that dominated the heavies for over a decade, most importantly completely neutering Americans and Brits into a bunch of fatties.

Nice Thread

[Kalan]

A lot of good names mentioned. I’d like to add one more. John Tate .....

Tate was 6’4” and had really good, really fluid footwork. Good jab. He had a lot of ring smarts for the few amount of fights he had. He had enough power and size to keep his opppnents honest, even if it wasn’t pure Ko power.
He was referred to as “the fighting machine” a very apt nickname, I think, due to his textbook skills.
He was doing a much, much better job with Weaver than Holmes for 14 rounds and 2:25 seconds.

Tate wasn’t very good in my view... He wasn't very bright... Weaver wasn’t landing as many punches, but he was taking impact off of Tate’s punches by slipping ducking, rolling, and countering technique – and Mike’s punches were doing more damage.. Weaver was completely beaten down and knocked out by the 12th with Holmes – but he almost knocked Tate out in the 12th. That was a real big round for Mike and put the handwriting on the wall that he was likely going to knock Tate out.

Mike Weaver was also the first man to KO Gerry Coetzee, something Tate couldn’t do.

Weaver is a neglected figure in the annals of Heavyweight History. He was overmatched a lot early on, which generally doesn’t lead to a lot of success. He was a Cinderella Man like Jimmy Braddock – some really bad fighters beat both guys – but like Braddock he had his day job, so he wasn’t in a hurry. Gradually Weaver put the bits and pieces to his game together that he needed to be a World Champion. The beating he put on Tate effectively ended JT’s career as a Heavyweight threat of any kind. Weaver was super confident going into that fight because he trained like a beast.

But if you're going to add John Tate who won only 1 Title Fight -- I'll add undefeated Anthony Joshua who's going into his 6th World Heavyweight Title Fight and in the process of unification... He's bigger, taller, faster, stronger, more athletic, and a Hell of a lot smarter than Tate... He's a far better defender with more versatility, punching power, and sharper combinations... As far as rounds fought, he has very little amateur and pro experience to have achieved his skill level -- so it looks good for him going forward, because his work ethic has only been matched by Tunney and Klitschko.

[Contendeh]

Holmes would have whipped Coetzee

Maybe he would have and maybe he wouldn’t have.

[Kalan]

We can safely say he would have.... Mike Weaver, John Tate, and Greg Page beat crap out of Coetzee.

[Contendeh]

We can safely say he would have.... Mike Weaver, John Tate, and Greg Page beat crap out of Coetzee.

Maybe. I can rank Larry as high as 3 on my all time list, but I can’t rank him with Ali and Louis, mostly because of his post 1983 work. He seems to be in a quasi state of retirement. He ould have fought a rematch with weaver during this time. He could have rematched Witherspoon.
Joe Louis would have rematched both of those performances.
He could have fought Coetzee in 1984 and unified.
Instead we got Mavis Frazier, belt swapping almost a year off and Bonecrusher Smith, who was a better fit for Larry to phone it in with.
Coetzee had the right hand, which was Larry’s weakness.
Coetzee and Pinky fought a very nice fight around this time. Very Even.

[Contendeh]

Kalan,

Add Joshua, he’s an undefeated Olympic Gold medalist.

If he gets knocked out, against Parker, or let’s say Wilder catches him with his right hand which does have the ability to Ko anyone if it lands flush, you can rest assured that Eddie Hearn is not going to put Joshua back into the ring in less than three months against anyone as rugged or durable as Trevor Berbick.

Three months! A man’s psyche hasn’t recooperated; i am not even sure you can physically heal in such a short time.

Lewis had a full year of rehabilitation with Manny who had Lennox go back to the Lionel Butler’s and Justine Fortune’s of the world.

I am sure Ace Miller was really something in eastern Tennessee, but he does not seem to be capable of managing an Olympic gold medal winner, which Tate would have been if he didn’t have Stevenson at his best to win it from- another sad bad break for Tate.

[Kalan]

We can safely say he would have.... Mike Weaver, John Tate, and Greg Page beat crap out of Coetzee.

Maybe. I can rank Larry as high as 3 on my all time list, but I can’t rank him with Ali and Louis, mostly because of his post 1983 work. He seems to be in a quasi state of retirement. He ould have fought a rematch with weaver during this time. He could have rematched Witherspoon.
Joe Louis would have rematched both of those performances.
He could have fought Coetzee in 1984 and unified.
Instead we got Mavis Frazier, belt swapping almost a year off and Bonecrusher Smith, who was a better fit for Larry to phone it in with.
Coetzee had the right hand, which was Larry’s weakness.
Coetzee and Pinky fought a very nice fight around this time. Very Even

I have to disagree with you on the idea that Holmes had a big weakness because he got decked.....but not stopped in his prime like Lennox Lewis... Mike Tyson... Evander Holyfield... Joe Frazier... George Foreman... Joe Louis... Floyd Patterson... Joe Walcott... Ezzard Charles... to say nothing of fighters like Witherspoon, Coetzee, Weaver, etc.

So no way in Hell were those fights were warranted.... Coetzee was losing to everybody and there was NO reason to fight him.... NO need to fight Witherspoon again because the lazy ass fell off the map.... No need to rematch Weaver because he stopped him and Bonecrusher and Dokes took him out as well.... Coetzee didn't have a right hand for Holmes... He didn't even have one for Snipes, Weaver, Page, etc.

Ali had no reason in the WORLD NOT to fight Larry Holmes instead of fighting Leon Stinks twice and then retiring... No way in Hell Ali was as good a boxer as Larry Holmes... Ali got tagged up 3 X as much and didn't last nearly as long... At 42 Holmes was still so good he out-boxed Ray Mercer (Whose 2 previous fights were Heavyweight Championship Fights he won by KO) while holding conversations with ringside reporters... "I ain't no Tommy Morrison."

[Nile4000]

Kalan,

Add Joshua, he’s an undefeated Olympic Gold medalist.

If he gets knocked out, against Parker, or let’s say Wilder catches him with his right hand which does have the ability to Ko anyone if it lands flush, you can rest assured that Eddie Hearn is not going to put Joshua back into the ring in less than three months against anyone as rugged or durable as Trevor Berbick.

Three months! A man’s psyche hasn’t recooperated; i am not even sure you can physically heal in such a short time.

Lewis had a full year of rehabilitation with Manny who had Lennox go back to the Lionel Butler’s and Justine Fortune’s of the world.

I am sure Ace Miller was really something in eastern Tennessee, but he does not seem to be capable of managing an Olympic gold medal winner, which Tate would have been if he didn’t have Stevenson at his best to win it from- another sad bad break for Tate.

And Stevenson was lucky that Vysotsky wasn't there, else they would have had Milian, or some other heavy from Cuba trying to do the deed.

[Kalan]

Kalan,

Add Joshua, he’s an undefeated Olympic Gold medalist.

If he gets knocked out, against Parker, or let’s say Wilder catches him with his right hand Olympic gold medal winner, which Tate would have been if he didn’t have Stevenson at his best to win it from- another sad bad break for Tate

First of all..... I wouldn't start giving Joshua losses he's never going to get... No way in Hell Parker or Wilder beat Joshua... He'll beat those 2 pokes flat into the canvas... Look at Parker versus Hughie, Ruiz, and Takam.... Gerald Washington won the first 4 rounds of his Wilder fight... Washington is a tyro and it took Wilder 5 rounds to get his right on him.

Ali went against 10/1 underdog Norton and got his jaw busted... Frazier had ZERO for Foreman... But Joe had blistering left hooks for Ali which Ali was a sucker for.... AJ doesn't have the technical problems and flaws those boys had.

Also.... If John Tate were real good he wouldn't have let the very small Mike Weaver get solid, telling blows on him all night.... Weaver fought an exceptional fight... But I think Tate's leaky defense was a big part of that.

[Contendeh]

Let’s not give him wins he doesn’t have yet, either.
It’s tough to argue any current champ, because their history isnt written yet. I am sure a discussion in 1987 has Tyson looking unbeatable as does a 1962 one does Liston.

The belt is twice as watered down now as it was in 1980, when it was already watered down. You could say that with four champs in 1978, Tate v Mercado could have been for some belt had it existed at that point.

Then Knoetze and Bobick are standard current day title defenses. Today, Tate v Coetzee is a unification fight!

In regards to Holmes. 5 consecutive years is a long time to be champion.
Sometime in 1983 Holmes realized that he could make just as much money, if not more, fighting whoever he wanted then who he should be...this is entering George Foreman title reign two territory.

Picking up another belt instead of fighting Greg Page (or Coetzee or Pinky) ain’t no champion and while you could argue that nobody had an overwhelming case there is enough circumstantial evidence here to say the smart money really was on Spinks a year later.

And no rematch with Spoon is another great example.

Imagine if Joe Louis had said, “look guys, I know a lot of you think I lost against Jersey Joe, but I’m in my mid 30s now and I really don’t want to really take these tough fights anymore.
Besides, I’m gonna fight Lee Oma for this other belt, see guys I’m still champ.”

No, I do not give Larry a walkover against Coetzee in 1984. I know this because of the Coetzee fight against Pinklon Thomas, who is also someone Larry could have fought.

[Kalan]

It’s tough to argue any current champ, because their history isnt written yet. I am sure a discussion in 1987 has Tyson looking unbeatable as does a 1962 one does Liston .......

The belt is twice as watered down now as it was in 1980, when it was already watered down. You could say that with four champs in 1978, Tate v Mercado could have been for some belt had it existed at that point.

Then Knoetze and Bobick are standard current day title defenses. Today, Tate v Coetzee is a unification fight!

And no rematch with Spoon is another great example.

Imagine if Joe Louis had said, “look guys, I know a lot of you think I lost against Jersey Joe, but I’m in my mid 30s now and I really don’t want to really take these tough fights anymore."

No, I do not give Larry a walkover against Coetzee in 1984. I know this because of the Coetzee fight against Pinklon Thomas, who is also someone Larry could have fought

Tyson wasn't looking unbeatable in 1987.... He was wide open and going the distance with Little 207-pound Tillis and 221-pound Tony Tucker.... Liston was getting old and looked imminently beatable, especially since he went the distance with Little Eddie Machen who weighed about 196...

Who gives a crap if there's 3 Heavyweight Champions... Everyone knows Joshua is the man and that these guys will eventually all fight.... Nothing is watered down, there's just more talent and bigger and better Heavyweights than ever from more countries -- including Easter Europe and Asia, which there never were before... How many Heavyweight Champions came from the UK in the first 90 years of the 20th Century as compared to the last 25 years???

Knoetze or Bobick would never get a Title Shot today... They were stink ass Heavyweights.

Look at all the good Heavyweights who never got a shot.... Did Oscar Rivas…. Izagbe Ugonoh… Otto Wallin… Amir Mansour… Robert Helenius… Malik Scott…. Alexander Ustinov… Carlos Negron… or Andriy Rudenko ever get title shots???

Those guys are 10 X better than Chuck Wepner, Brian London, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Terry Daniels, Dave Zyglewicz, Don Cockell, or Tom McNeely, and other unskilled swingers who got Title Fights in the 50's, 60's, and 70's.

Walcott was older than Louis... He was done and chinny as Hell... Louis wanted a rematch because Walcott was an easy KO win... Walcott had MANY losses against guys like Abe Simon and light heavy Jack Fox who both knocked him out.

And Holmes would have slaughtered Coetzee... He was a chinny punching bag who Bruno finished in a round and Weaver took out... Holmes was willing to rematch Witherspoon if he worked his way back to contention... But Timmy lost to Bonecrusher who Holmes beat easily.... Holmes was in discussions to fight Thomas but he got outboxed by Trevor Berbick, another Holmes victim... The timing and money on a lot of those fights wasn't right... That wasn't true when Ali refused to fight the top Heavyweight, which was Larry Holmes, and kept fighting Little Leon Spinks after Holmes won the Title.

[SteveO]

Look at all the good Heavyweights who never got a shot.... Did Oscar Rivas…. Izagbe Ugonoh… Otto Wallin… Amir Mansour… Robert Helenius… Malik Scott…. Alexander Ustinov… Carlos Negron… or Andriy Rudenko ever get title shots???

I get what you're saying but just a little correction:
Ustinov lost against Manuel Charr 2 months ago in a title shot. That's if you count the WBA 'Regular' title.

[Kalan]

He's done..... They're both cooked turkeys.... NOBODY was paying attention to that "title fight"

The ONLY Heavyweight Champions who have any sway are Joshua... Wilder... and Parker.

NOBODY even thinks of Charr as a challenger since he got completely outboxed and blown out by Povetkin.... Try not to mess things up worse than they are -- because sanctioning fees is a game that will never stop.

Sports Columnist Bill Conlin used to say in the 60's... "Heavyweight Champion of the 5 County Mosquito Control District”

[MrGuy]

It’s tough to argue any current champ, because their history isnt written yet. I am sure a discussion in 1987 has Tyson looking unbeatable as does a 1962 one does Liston .......

The belt is twice as watered down now as it was in 1980, when it was already watered down. You could say that with four champs in 1978, Tate v Mercado could have been for some belt had it existed at that point.

Then Knoetze and Bobick are standard current day title defenses. Today, Tate v Coetzee is a unification fight!

And no rematch with Spoon is another great example.

Imagine if Joe Louis had said, “look guys, I know a lot of you think I lost against Jersey Joe, but I’m in my mid 30s now and I really don’t want to really take these tough fights anymore."

No, I do not give Larry a walkover against Coetzee in 1984. I know this because of the Coetzee fight against Pinklon Thomas, who is also someone Larry could have fought

Tyson wasn't looking unbeatable in 1987.... He was wide open and going the distance with Little 207-pound Tillis and 221-pound Tony Tucker.... Liston was getting old and looked imminently beatable, especially since he went the distance with Little Eddie Machen who weighed about 196...

Who gives a crap if there's 3 Heavyweight Champions... Everyone knows Joshua is the man and that these guys will eventually all fight.... Nothing is watered down, there's just more talent and bigger and better Heavyweights than ever from more countries -- including Easter Europe and Asia, which there never were before... How many Heavyweight Champions came from the UK in the first 90 years of the 20th Century as compared to the last 25 years???

Knoetze or Bobick would never get a Title Shot today... They were stink ass Heavyweights.

Look at all the good Heavyweights who never got a shot.... Did Oscar Rivas…. Izagbe Ugonoh… Otto Wallin… Amir Mansour… Robert Helenius… Malik Scott…. Alexander Ustinov… Carlos Negron… or Andriy Rudenko ever get title shots???

Those guys are 10 X better than Chuck Wepner, Brian London, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Terry Daniels, Dave Zyglewicz, Don Cockell, or Tom McNeely, and other unskilled swingers who got Title Fights in the 50's, 60's, and 70's.

Walcott was older than Louis... He was done and chinny as Hell... Louis wanted a rematch because Walcott was an easy KO win... Walcott had MANY losses against guys like Abe Simon and light heavy Jack Fox who both knocked him out.

And Holmes would have slaughtered Coetzee... He was a chinny punching bag who Bruno finished in a round and Weaver took out... Holmes was willing to rematch Witherspoon if he worked his way back to contention... But Timmy lost to Bonecrusher who Holmes beat easily.... Holmes was in discussions to fight Thomas but he got outboxed by Trevor Berbick, another Holmes victim... The timing and money on a lot of those fights wasn't right... That wasn't true when Ali refused to fight the top Heavyweight, which was Larry Holmes, and kept fighting Little Leon Spinks after Holmes won the Title.

If more talent exists now, why is the heavyweight scene so dreadful? The Cold War being over opened things up. However it didnt necessarily lead to a better division. More skillled? These guys are huge and ponderous. They simply play jab and grab. Knoetze and Bobick were no worse contenders for the title then most fighting for it these days.

[BitPlayer]

Modern heavies rank well H2H because of sheer size IMO, but none of them maybe since Holyfield (I might be forgetinhg something), rank with earlier champs in terms of P4P and skill. The current crop all have gaping holes in their game

[Ambling Alp II]

Modern heavies only rank high H2H. At a certain point size stops being an advantage. A a later point, it starts being a disadvantage.

[Kalan]

Modern heavies rank well H2H because of sheer size IMO, but none of them maybe since Holyfield (I might be forgetinhg something), rank with earlier champs in terms of P4P and skill. The current crop all have gaping holes in their game

That's more hating on modern Heavyweights... Principally cuz America's been overtaking in the last generation... It's generally North Americans who do all the hating on modern Heavyweights.

Holyfield had gaping holes in his game... He was easy to hit with overhand rights and right hooks as the crude Riddick Bowe proved in beating him twice, knocking him down 3 X and knocking him out.. A fat former Middleweight Champion ripped his body out - so that was another vulnerability..

Bowe was so easy to hit it was ridiculous... Even the inept punching bag Golota riddled him with punches so he ducked about anybody who could hit real good: Lewis, Mercer, McCall, Tyson, Tua, Ruddock etc... Lewis fought them all.

But Lewis was fairly open to right hand leads... Taken out twice with one shot.

Frazier was so easy to hit it was ridiculous... He did a good imitation of a punching bag vs Foreman.

Ali was wide open for left hooks... Even the blooping punching Norton caught him pulling back and shattered his jaw... Little teeny Heavyweights like Banks, Cooper, and Frazier decked him with left hooks.

Patterson showed his vulnerability as soon as he stepped in with the great Sonny Liston. He got smashed with hooks to the short ribs and ripping uppercuts. His peek-a-boo could be popped with jabs and right hands in succession. The tyro Jerry Quarry decked Floyd 4 X and managed to out-score him.

Max Schmeling nailed Louis with right hand counter shots through a gaping hole... He knocked JL stiff... 174-pound Billy Conn landed flurries of about everything on Louis and he was the only really quick handed boxer Louis ever beat.

Most Heavyweight Champions had gaping holes... There were no Lomachenko's in that division -- the best defensive boxers were Johnson, Tunney, Holmes, Vitali, and Joshua... They're the top 5 defensively... They were all difficult to hit with about anything.... If they were hit real good they made adjustments on the fly and generally came back to win.... Right behind them were Lewis and a Steward retooled Wladimir -- both very hard to reach for just about any challenger.