Should heavyweight boxing introduce height & reach divisions (minimum 6 foot 4 inches of height)?

[Enlightened-One]

Pulev is 6’4”!? Doesn’t look like it when he’s stood next to people.

Great use of perspective there, dude.

To be fair, Klitschko and Joshua are both around the 6' 6" mark, so your photos don't really prove anything contradictory to BoxRec's official figures.

[gilgamesh]

To the OP.

Hell no

This ranks amongst the stupidest suggestions I've seen on this forum.

[Kalan]

WTF? Height and reach?

Mike Tyson's dominance as a short heavy in his prime ruins silly theorys like this.

Mike Tyson beat a lot of guys who had better height and reach... Even Michael Spinks was taller and longer... Buster Douglas and Lennox Lewis were too big and strong for Little Mikey Tyson..... It's really size that's the issue not length... We definitely need weight divisions... Human beings were smart enough to put weight classes in from the beginning.

I don't want height or reach "divisions" cuz weight is the biggest factor... David Tua would kill Tommy Hearns... Joe Frazier crushed Bob Foster -- who had a massive amount of height and reach on Frazier.... George Foreman smashed Frazier -- his height and reach advantages were beside the point -- cuz he was just too big and strong for Smokin'

[candyslim]

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To be fair, Klitschko and Joshua are both around the 6' 6" mark, so your photos don't really prove anything contradictory to BoxRec's official figures.

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And Tony Thompson isn't exactly a midget either.

When people are unhappy about the number of titles and weight divisions, this would increase them exponentially. If you think about it because you would have to have a weight categorization as well as height or you'd be penalizing lanky cruiserweights. Presumably the height limit split would be applied to all divisions.

FFS sake let's stop talking about it now before Mendoza and Sulaiman, and certain TV execs get wind of it and decide what a great idea it is

[asdfjkl]

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Now that's a clear poll lol

[Luis Fernando12]

I find the topic of this discussion around the size of modern day heavyweight fighters quite intriguing, but I feel that weight also has to be considered, with height and reach being less significant factors, due to the following reasons…

Based on BoxRec’s top 60 rankings from February of last year, the average weight of a heavyweight fighter was 247lbs, with 42% of the boxers listed being taller than 6’ 4” in height.

The average height of the top-30 tallest boxers was 6’ 5” (77”), with the average for the bottom half being 6’ 3” (75”).

The average weight of a top-30 heaviest boxer was 257.5lbs, with the average for the bottom half of modern day heavyweights being 236.5lbs.

To put these numbers into context, every single one of the top sixty fighters rated by BoxRec during February 2017 weighed far more than Larry Holmes' average 207½lb physical prime weight, with the vast majority being taller also.

Around the same date these stats were formulated, the most dominant technically-active fighters of the heavyweight division included the likes of:

• Tyson Fury = 265lbs; 6' 9"
• Wladimir Klitschko = 245lbs; 6' 6"
• Deontay Wilder = 228lbs; 6' 7"
• Kubrat Pulev = 253lbs; 6' 4.5"
• Luis Ortiz = 241lbs; 6' 4"
• Anthony Joshua = 249lbs; 6' 6"
• Joseph Parker = 246lbs; 6' 4"

If you’re currently a 6’ 3” (or shorter) highly-athletic heavyweight that naturally walks around somewhere around the 225lbs mark, then you’re in “no man’s land”, because you’ll be far too big for the cruiserweight division, but also having to endure a significant size disadvantage against some of your heavyweight peers.

Yes, either introduce a new height and reach division whilst keeping the heavyweight division the same. Meaning, don't let two 240 pound boxers with significant height and reach differences from fighting each other. You can have a 6 foot 2, 240 pound guy with a 73 inch reach vs a 6 foot 7, 240 pound guy with a 85 inch reach and that bout would still be a mismatch, even though their weight is the same, since there exists a huge disparity in height and reach.

So in order to overcome this problem, only allow two boxers close to each other in height and reach fight each other. This means, only allow two 240 pound boxers who are evenly matched in height and reach to fight against each other.

Or, simply add a new weight division that exists between cruiser weight and heavyweight. Such as a super cruiser weight division. Which could be in the weight range of 225 - 240 pounds.

This then prevents mismatches from occurring!

Alexander Povetkin and David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko were billed as 'great' bouts between 3 elite boxers in the heavyweight division and many thought they were going to be competitive bouts pre-fight. In the end, it appeared as if Povetkin, nor Haye even belonged in the same weight division as Wladimir Klitschko or even deserved to even share the same ring with him.

[Luis Fernando12]

theres been far too many guys under that height contending and winning belts for that to be justifiable. and your top 3 lewis and vitali and wlad all got stopped vs 'banned' guys and wilder had his knock down by one of them

btw all those guys were elite amateurs too, should we ban anyone who say, hasnt won a medal in the world amateur championships or olympics? this would ensure a high level throughout regardless of size

ironfrost taking a more round about route to his povetkin trolling this time, but still getting there eventually. guy shouldnt even be fighting because hes so overmatched! ban him for his own good!

One or two upset wins by small heavyweights doesn't mean that we should have small heavyweights fighting big heavyweights.

Those guys that beat Wladimir Klitschko and Lennox Lewis, did they go on to then become a dominant number 1 world heavyweight champion of the world? Out of those guys, only Anthony Joshua did. Do you want to know why? Because Joshua is a super heavyweight like Wladimir Klitschko is whilst all the other guys that beat Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko (with the exception of perhaps Corrie Sanders), were all mini tiny heavyweights who were mainly lucky to win.

Tyson Fury doesn't have much amateur experience. He also did a much better job on Wladimir Klitschko than Alexander Povetkin did, even though Povetkin has far greater amateur experience than Fury. So what does that tell us? That size > amateur experience. Isn't that so?

I don't understand why you're criticizing me of being an alt when I make some very good, well substantiated points. I don't who Iron Frost is. But Povetkin is my favorite boxer today but I still don't think he is suited for the heavyweight division. And he probably has less than 1% chance of beating Anthony Joshua, either Klitschko brother or Tyson Fury (despite him being more skilled than any of them). That doesn't mean he should be banned altogether from boxing because he is overmatched against super heavyweights. Rather, he should be only banned from facing those guys who could pretty much end his life with only a few punches when they are that much bigger, stronger and more powerful than him. He doesn't belong in the same ring against those guys. Instead, he should only be allowed to fight against opponents his own size. Such as fighting in the cruiser weight division.

Be honest: Do you genuinely think AJ or Fury or Klitschkos deserve any credit for beating small, undersized, outmatched and over matched opponents like David Haye and Alexander Povetkin?

Also, those heavyweight boxers before 1990's don't count because athletic super heavyweights didn't exist then. My point is in relation to the modern heavyweight division.

[Luis Fernando12]

WTF? Height and reach?

Mike Tyson's dominance as a short heavy in his prime ruins silly theorys like this.

Mike Tyson's dominance came against nonathletic giants. When super heavyweights became more athletic in the 1990's, boxers of Mike Tyson's type became extinct and he would stand 0 chance of becoming a dominant number 1 heavyweight in the world against today's super heavyweight giants. In fact, he would be less successful than Alexander Povetkin or David Haye. He would be slaughtered like an animal or stepped on like an insect by the likes of Klitshckos, Anthony Joshua or Tyson Fury.

[Luis Fernando12]

The best active heavyweight of this century is Povetkin...

That's only because he is from Klitschko's era and most active heavyweights today are relatively new.

[Luis Fernando12]

Chris Byrd made Vitali quit.

Lamont Brewster owned Wladimir.

Haseem Rahman destroyed Lennox.

Anthony Joshua was savaged by Mihai Nistor.

Tyson Fury was out on his feet against blown-up middleweight Steve USSSS Cunningham.

That's all well and good! But did any of those guys go on to become the number 1, dominant world heavyweight champions of the world?

[Luis Fernando12]

We definitely don't need another division. Terrible idea

Most of the smaller fighters actually belong in cruiser but for some weird reason nobody is interested in that weight class. Big guys with good skills. Would be the best division if the fighters just stayed there. But it seems people want the freak show at HW instead. Valuev is the value for some strange reason.

Povetkin could easily make the cruiser limit. He was 223 for the Hammer fight. Guys in lower divisions cut almost that much weight regularly.

On a side note.... Reach is big advantage in boxing. Many of the old greats had really long arms.

Lets throw Vitali here as example of the modern boxer.

Height 201 cm (6'7'' For those of you still stuck on stone age)
Reach 201 (79'')

Some of the older ones.

Lewis
196 (6'5'')
213 (84'')

Foreman
192 (6'3 1/2'')
199 (78 1/2'')

Ali
191 (6'3'')
198 (78'')

Liston
185 (6'1'')
213 (84'')

Holmes
190 (6'3'')
206 (81'')

Shavers
183 (6'0'')
201 (79'')

Or an alternative could simply be to ban small heavyweights like Alexander Povetkin and David Haye from even competing in the heavyweight division? If introducing new divisions seems like a bad idea?

[Luis Fernando12]

Absolutely not! Fighters like Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, Tyson (85-89 version), Tua, etc were able to dominate the heavyweight division or at least be very competitive in their eras. Dempsey was average height and only included because of the height disparity with Willard, but the others were short for their division.

If there is a case for giving a leg up to the natural 15 stone heavyweight, and many would argue against it, then introduce a new super-cruiserweight division. As I said on a previous thread about that, it would start out as the red-headed bastard step-child, as a new division always does, but look at cruiserweight thirty years after inception - who would be in favour of abolishing that now? None but an idiot.

I'm definitely not against a new weight division between cruiser weight and heavyweight. Simply because, none of the small heavyweights today stand a chance in hell against the best super heavyweights today.

Ask yourself: Would you give the following small boxers any chance at beating the best super heavyweights like Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury or the Klitschkos:

1) Alexander Povetkin

2) David Haye

3) Andy Ruiz Jr

4) Carlos Takam

5) Tony Bellew

6) Bryant Jennings

7) Amir Mansour

Just be honest! If your answer is no, then these 7 boxers simply don't belong in the same ring against those top super heavyweights and therefore, shouldn't be in the same division (be it weight, height and reach division).

[Luis Fernando12]

Lol there are many many skilled short heavyweights. If you wanna add some limitations, it should be % of fat. Im tired of all these fatties who can cut to middleweight, calling themselves professional athletes. Heavyweight division is full of these. :( :( :(

Not everyone can cut fat, even if they tried to. Some people are naturally fat and some people suffer from certain illnesses which causes them to look fat. Yet, they can still have better stamina than skinny looking people or be in better physical condition. Fat =/= physical condition.

[Luis Fernando12]

No. Go back to Cruiserweight if you can't hang up there.

It's not a matter of being able to 'hang' in the heavyweight division. Rather, it's a matter of small heavyweights simply not even being allowed to enter the ring against super heavyweights because it wastes time as the outcome of such bouts are pretty much guaranteed and inevitable before fights like these even take place.

For example, why should Anthony Joshua waste his time fighting Alexander Povetkin or David Haye when he could fight guys his own size like Tyson Fury?

Having small heavyweights in the heavyweight division simply wastes time from bigger fights between two evenly matched super heavyweights taking place.

[Luis Fernando12]

I think the problem with height is more of a recent one. A common point made is that a lot of old heavies would be too short in this era so using them as an example isn't the whole story. I think the OPs post is valid but no! I do not want another division.

So you're okay with small heavyweights who inevitably stand nearly no chance at winning against super heavyweights, fighting super heavyweights, even though the outcome is nearly guaranteed?

Almost nobody gives these small heavyweights any chance at beating super heavyweights like Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury and the Klitschkos:

1) Alexander Povetkin

2) David Haye

3) Carlos Takam

4) Andy Ruiz Jr

5) Bryant Jennings

6) Tony Bellew

7) Amir Mansour

So why should these 7 boxers even be allowed to compete against the aforementioned super heavyweights? Or, why should they even belong in the same weight division?

[Luis Fernando12]

To the OP.

Hell no

This ranks amongst the stupidest suggestions I've seen on this forum.

Why?

[Luis Fernando12]

WTF? Height and reach?

Mike Tyson's dominance as a short heavy in his prime ruins silly theorys like this.

Mike Tyson beat a lot of guys who had better height and reach... Even Michael Spinks was taller and longer... Buster Douglas and Lennox Lewis were too big and strong for Little Mikey Tyson..... It's really size that's the issue not length... We definitely need weight divisions... Human beings were smart enough to put weight classes in from the beginning.

I don't want height or reach "divisions" cuz weight is the biggest factor... David Tua would kill Tommy Hearns... Joe Frazier crushed Bob Foster -- who had a massive amount of height and reach on Frazier.... George Foreman smashed Frazier -- his height and reach advantages were beside the point -- cuz he was just too big and strong for Smokin'

You have a good point! But, since 2000, the number 1 dominant heavyweight champion of the world has ALWAYS been above 6 foot 3 inches in height. So not only were they heavy, but they were always taller than 6 foot 3 inches.

Is there any reason why we haven't seen a 6 foot 2, 240 pound boxer become the number 1 dominant heavyweight champion? Since we had plenty of heavyweights in the last 2 decades that were 6 foot 2 or shorter who weighed 240 pounds or more.

Perhaps when weight is equal, height and reach really matter. A 240 pound boxer with a 85 inch reach and standing 6 foot 7 inches tall perhaps shouldn't be allowed to fight against a 240 pound boxer who is 6 foot 2, with a 73 inch reach? Am I correct with that assessment? Since short boxers rarely have success against giant heavyweights with weight being relatively equal.

So maybe in the heavyweight division, there should be a height and reach division were two boxers with not just the same weight, but also height and reach fight against each other.

So have 2 boxers that weigh 240 pounds, that are 6 foot 2 inches tall and have a 75 inch reach fight each other in the heavyweight division.

And separately

Have 2 boxers who are 240 pounds, that are 6 foot 4+ inches tall, with 80+ inches of reach fight among each other.

Or another solution is to simply introduce a new weight division between cruiser weight and heavyweight. What do you think about that idea? Something like 225 - 240 pound range and naming it 'super cruiser weight'?

[asdfjkl]

The best active heavyweight of this century is Povetkin...

That's only because he is from Klitschko's era and most active heavyweights today are relatively new.

Well then just the past decade, Wilder fought since 2008, I think Povetkin showed more in the past 10 years.
Actually, I think Tyson Fury is the only one who showed more in the past 10 years, AJ ain't active long enough.

[Heretic]

So you're okay with small heavyweights who inevitably stand nearly no chance at winning against super heavyweights, fighting super heavyweights, even though the outcome is nearly guaranteed?

4) Andy Ruiz Jr

why should they even belong in the same weight division?

So you are saying that Ruiz should not have fought against the too big opponents he had no chance of beating?

He should never had to face the giants like Hanks, Love, Austin and Gormley who all are 6'4'' or above.

[Lackeos]

This has been discussed before. Weight is probably the more sensible way to cut divisions. However, if they lowered the CW limit to 190 or 195 and then had a 210-215 division followed by an unlimited division, it might give some non-giants a chance.

[Heretic]

How many non giants are there that could not make it to the cruiser limit?

Many fighters cut 10-20 pounds in the lower weights.

Most of the smaller heavies have bit of baby flesh on them anyways.

[jamesmcdonnell]

How many non giants are there that could not make it to the cruiser limit?

Many fighters cut 10-20 pounds in the lower weights.

Most of the smaller heavies have bit of baby flesh on them anyways.

Loads. There are a tonne of guys who couldn't make 200.

[bradinho]

The small heavies are just lazy cruisers that cant be arsed making weight like everybody else has to, would rather see them out of the game than start inventing new weight divisions for the fat, indiciplined feckers

Maybe us the punters have a responsibility to make have more interest and promote the cruisers more ... ? I'm guessing these "undisciplined feckers" are chasing money to earn a living and the money is in the Heavy division ... let's face it if we could get paid more money to do less we would right #cruisersarebetterthenheavies anyone?

[gilgamesh]

To the OP.

Hell no

This ranks amongst the stupidest suggestions I've seen on this forum.

Why?

Because overcoming a height disadvantage or using it to your advantage is simply part of the game. Most fighters train to use their height to their advantage somehow whether they be short or tall.

The 5'10 Jack Dempsey for instance absolutely smashed the 6'5 Jess Willard giving him one of the worst beatings in Heavyweight Championship history.

[gilgamesh]

This has been discussed before. Weight is probably the more sensible way to cut divisions. However, if they lowered the CW limit to 190 or 195 and then had a 210-215 division followed by an unlimited division, it might give some non-giants a chance.

If they ever add in a division between Cruiserweight and Heavyweight I'm done with the sport. They would have disgraced the sport forever, and they might as well just stop doing it if they sink that low.

"The Heavyweight Champion of the World" for over 100 years has been the measuring stick for who is THE MAN in Boxing. If they suddenly changed that after CENTURIES of tradition to where there is now a "Super Heavyweight Champion" it would sicken me to my core, and I would consider it a betrayal to the sport and the fans.