Should heavyweight boxing introduce height & reach divisions (minimum 6 foot 4 inches of height)?

[littlepug]

So because some of the cruisers want heavyweight money/status/no weight making even though they are not big enough, we should add another division to make them a bit more comfy ? Fcuk me they are lucky they weren't born as flyweights, they have to make weight, get paid sod all and get very little press coverage, OP needs to have a word with himself !

[jamesmcdonnell]

Well I gave the example of Usyk, I could have used Povetkin, of 'if you're good enough you'll go for heavyweight ' but sadly these guys are still handicapped by their size. Imagine what a 6' 6" 260lb version of one of those guys could accomplish, although could be they wouldn't have experienced the same kind of need to refine their technique.

Marciano at 185 lbs wouldn't have stood any chance against Joe Frazier, never mind a 6' 6" titan of the 21st century. He would be able to try of course but I think he'd soon realize cruiserweight would be a better option for him. Of course a 1990 born Rocky might be more like 6' 2" and 240lbs and might be highly competitive at heavyweight in which case no problem, but if not I'm saying there should be an option for the the smaller heavyweight that is a little more appealing than getting crushed like a bug by the modern behemoth who has a 40lbs of solid muscle advantage.

100 years ago a top heavyweight was 6'. There were guys of 6'6" around but they were freakish and uncoordinated. By the 70's the top heavyweight was 6' 3" and 215lbs. Now they are 6' 6" and 250lbs. There are guys of 7'0" around but they are freakish and uncoordinated. Give it a few decades the 7' guys will be as athletic as Joshua and just as coordinated. You think Louis destroys Joshua like he did Buddy Baer?

Marciano knocked out Walcott who was bigger than Frazier.

7 foot tall guys will never be that athletic.

Yes! Eventually, there'll come a point when even 7 foot giant super heavyweights will become athletic. Very few people believed in the 1960's that 6 foot 6 boxers will ever become athletic until the advent of Lennox Lewis and the Klitschkos. Don't hold your breath is all I can say!

Lewis and the Klitschko's developed fighting styles that suited their size and frame. Neither of them was ever going to fight like Ali, or Tyson, because men that size simply cannot, it's biomechanics.

Primo Carnera 6'6", and Jess Willard 6'7" were considered real outliers in their eras, as the average human height was much lower, however, there were still men that size, with the same limitations their size imparts. The thing both lacked however most, was proper schooling, neither of them had any amateur experience, and turned to the sport because promoters saw an opportunity to exploit their size.

Human biomechanics aren't going to change. You're never going to see an olympic weightlifter build like Mo Farah, or a bodybuilder type winning the high jump.

There will be another dominant champ come along, who is around 6'2"-6'4" in the next 20 years, because there are styles of fighting they can employ than bigger men cannot.

I would pick prime holyfield over Wlad all day long, Vitali, tough to call as Vitali was awkward as hell and very tough, Joshua, who knows, not seen the best of him yet, but what is certain is that a prime holyfield had stamina to burn, incredible toughness, and hit hard enough to earn the respect of any man, whilst not being a KO puncher.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Well I gave the example of Usyk, I could have used Povetkin, of 'if you're good enough you'll go for heavyweight ' but sadly these guys are still handicapped by their size. Imagine what a 6' 6" 260lb version of one of those guys could accomplish, although could be they wouldn't have experienced the same kind of need to refine their technique.

Marciano at 185 lbs wouldn't have stood any chance against Joe Frazier, never mind a 6' 6" titan of the 21st century. He would be able to try of course but I think he'd soon realize cruiserweight would be a better option for him. Of course a 1990 born Rocky might be more like 6' 2" and 240lbs and might be highly competitive at heavyweight in which case no problem, but if not I'm saying there should be an option for the the smaller heavyweight that is a little more appealing than getting crushed like a bug by the modern behemoth who has a 40lbs of solid muscle advantage.

100 years ago a top heavyweight was 6'. There were guys of 6'6" around but they were freakish and uncoordinated. By the 70's the top heavyweight was 6' 3" and 215lbs. Now they are 6' 6" and 250lbs. There are guys of 7'0" around but they are freakish and uncoordinated. Give it a few decades the 7' guys will be as athletic as Joshua and just as coordinated. You think Louis destroys Joshua like he did Buddy Baer?

Marciano knocked out Walcott who was bigger than Frazier.

7 foot tall guys will never be that athletic.

You should google Olivier Richters



He's 7ft2, he used to live near my cousin

Why would I do that? What interest would I have in him?

[candyslim]

The flyweight comment is true enough but I'm not clear how introducing a super-cruiserweight division is likely to help these cruisers attain money, status, and freedom from weight-making? It seems to me it doesn't affect their ability to chase their fortune in the heavyweight division if they want to, but it offers them the opportunity to compete on a level playing field if they can't progress as heavyweight.

Exactly the same arguments and derisive attitudes prevailed when the cruiserweight division was being proposed, considered and implemented. The only difference between then and now is that the top heavyweights are now three inches taller and 35lb heavier.

[littlepug]

The flyweight comment is true enough but I'm not clear how introducing a super-cruiserweight division is likely to help these cruisers attain money, status, and freedom from weight-making? It seems to me it doesn't affect their ability to chase their fortune in the heavyweight division if they want to, but it offers them the opportunity to compete on a level playing field if they can't progress as heavyweight.

Exactly the same arguments and derisive attitudes prevailed when the cruiserweight division was being proposed, considered and implemented. The only difference between then and now is that the top heavyweights are now three inches taller and 35lb heavier.

Maybe should of worded it differently, just meant those are the reasons for them moving up but when they get there they are too small so people are suggesting another division for the "small heavies" when they arent really heavies at all, just fat cruisers.

[Heretic]

So you're okay with small heavyweights who inevitably stand nearly no chance at winning against super heavyweights, fighting super heavyweights, even though the outcome is nearly guaranteed?

4) Andy Ruiz Jr

why should they even belong in the same weight division?

So you are saying that Ruiz should not have fought against the too big opponents he had no chance of beating?

He should never had to face the giants like Hanks, Love, Austin and Gormley who all are 6'4'' or above.

There's a difference between low level giant super heavyweights and top level giant super heavyweights. Sure, Andy Ruiz Jr (and other small heavyweights) can beat giant heavyweights who aren't at the top level. But, Andy Ruiz Jr, Alexander Povetkin, David Haye, Carlos Takam and Bryant Jennings. All whom are small heavyweights shouldn't be allowed to face top level giant super heavyweights like Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury or the Klitschkos.

Oh so now it is about the skills also.

You wan't to make new division for really big and tall boxers that are also supremely skilled

[Heretic]

You have a good point! But, since 2000, the number 1 dominant heavyweight champion of the world has ALWAYS been above 6 foot 3 inches in height. So not only were they heavy, but they were always taller than 6 foot 3 inches.

Is there any reason why we haven't seen a 6 foot 2, 240 pound boxer become the number 1 dominant heavyweight champion? Since we had plenty of heavyweights in the last 2 decades that were 6 foot 2 or shorter who weighed 240 pounds or more.

Perhaps when weight is equal, height and reach really matter. A 240 pound boxer with a 85 inch reach and standing 6 foot 7 inches tall perhaps shouldn't be allowed to fight against a 240 pound boxer who is 6 foot 2, with a 73 inch reach? Am I correct with that assessment? Since short boxers rarely have success against giant heavyweights with weight being relatively equal.

So maybe in the heavyweight division, there should be a height and reach division were two boxers with not just the same weight, but also height and reach fight against each other.

So have 2 boxers that weigh 240 pounds, that are 6 foot 2 inches tall and have a 75 inch reach fight each other in the heavyweight division.

And separately

Have 2 boxers who are 240 pounds, that are 6 foot 4+ inches tall, with 80+ inches of reach fight among each other.

Or another solution is to simply introduce a new weight division between cruiser weight and heavyweight. What do you think about that idea? Something like 225 - 240 pound range and naming it 'super cruiser weight'?

The fact is that most guys who weigh a solid 250 are going to be taller and longer.... Extremely few 6'3" athletes are going to be able to pack that much weight on an extremely athletic frame... There are too many weight divisions as it is.... It's sheer insanity to create a flood of new divisions -- all based on height and reach.

Okay! That's a fair point! But don't you think the weight disparity between a small and a super heavyweight (such as between Anthony Joshua and Carlos Takam) is far too big. That there is greater reason for another weight division to be introduced above 200 pounds compared to the lower weight divisions where boxers are merely separated by 10 pounds or less. Isn't a 215 pounds heavyweight, facing a greater disadvantage against a 250 pounds heavyweight than a 126 pound boxer facing a 135 pound boxer?

It's been said before but I am going to say it again. That 215 HW fighter belongs in the cruiser weight division. He can simply cut the weight and fight at cruiser. It is not the systems fault that he is fighting above the weight class where he should be.

Adding another division will not do any good if the boxers still go to heavy because there is more money and fame there.

[candyslim]

The flyweight comment is true enough but I'm not clear how introducing a super-cruiserweight division is likely to help these cruisers attain money, status, and freedom from weight-making? It seems to me it doesn't affect their ability to chase their fortune in the heavyweight division if they want to, but it offers them the opportunity to compete on a level playing field if they can't progress as heavyweight.

Exactly the same arguments and derisive attitudes prevailed when the cruiserweight division was being proposed, considered and implemented. The only difference between then and now is that the top heavyweights are now three inches taller and 35lb heavier.

Maybe should of worded it differently, just meant those are the reasons for them moving up but when they get there they are too small so people are suggesting another division for the "small heavies" when they arent really heavies at all, just fat cruisers.

Or super-cruisers

Don't forget Povetkin for example might look a little fleshy (dear God, I wish I was as fleshy as Povetkin) but he decided a long time ago he could compete at heavyweight because he had the skills to compensate for his physical limitations, but it could be that he and other smaller heavyweights feel that being a bit bulkier than they could be, is more beneficial to them in the ring than coming in looking a bit leaner? There again it might be they're all lazy bar-stewards

[asdfjkl]

That's only because he is from Klitschko's era and most active heavyweights today are relatively new.

Well then just the past decade, Wilder fought since 2008, I think Povetkin showed more in the past 10 years.
Actually, I think Tyson Fury is the only one who showed more in the past 10 years, AJ ain't active long enough.

That's because Deontay Wilder didn't have as much of an amateur career and subsequently boxing experience as Povetkin had before he turned pro. So Deontay Wilder had to start off gaining experience by fighting against low level opposition when he turned pro. Only now has he gained the experienced for the elite level.

That's allways the same story, but in reality, Povetkin started as an amateur at the age of 21, Deontay Wilder started as an amateur at the age of 19... So it's really not that far of. At most you could say Povetkin was far more active and also usually fought all the way till he won the final instead of regularly losing in the early rounds.

[littlepug]

The flyweight comment is true enough but I'm not clear how introducing a super-cruiserweight division is likely to help these cruisers attain money, status, and freedom from weight-making? It seems to me it doesn't affect their ability to chase their fortune in the heavyweight division if they want to, but it offers them the opportunity to compete on a level playing field if they can't progress as heavyweight.

Exactly the same arguments and derisive attitudes prevailed when the cruiserweight division was being proposed, considered and implemented. The only difference between then and now is that the top heavyweights are now three inches taller and 35lb heavier.

Maybe should of worded it differently, just meant those are the reasons for them moving up but when they get there they are too small so people are suggesting another division for the "small heavies" when they arent really heavies at all, just fat cruisers.

Or super-cruisers

Don't forget Povetkin for example might look a little fleshy (dear God, I wish I was as fleshy as Povetkin) but he decided a long time ago he could compete at heavyweight because he had the skills to compensate for his physical limitations, but it could be that he and other smaller heavyweights feel that being a bit bulkier than they could be, is more beneficial to them in the ring than coming in looking a bit leaner? There again it might be they're all lazy bar-stewards

yeah theres always a few that fall between the divisions like there is in all weights and some that are skilled enough to overturn the weight deficeit which makes their acheivements all the more impressive (haye v valuev ?)

[HomicideHenry]

This idea has been floating around since the 1930s when Primo Carnera was fighting. There has been Super Heavyweight titles, though most of those guys were incredibly fat and was for novelty purposes (ie Butterbean).

For every good big heavyweight there's always been a great small heavyweight to come along and defy the odds. However, in our present time, we finally have giants who are equally impressive in skills as they are impressive in size. That makes it virtually impossible for men 6'3" and 215 pounds or lower to do anything with that.

[candyslim]

Maybe should of worded it differently, just meant those are the reasons for them moving up but when they get there they are too small so people are suggesting another division for the "small heavies" when they arent really heavies at all, just fat cruisers.

Or super-cruisers

Don't forget Povetkin for example might look a little fleshy (dear God, I wish I was as fleshy as Povetkin) but he decided a long time ago he could compete at heavyweight because he had the skills to compensate for his physical limitations, but it could be that he and other smaller heavyweights feel that being a bit bulkier than they could be, is more beneficial to them in the ring than coming in looking a bit leaner? There again it might be they're all lazy bar-stewards

yeah theres always a few that fall between the divisions like there is in all weights and some that are skilled enough to overturn the weight deficeit which makes their acheivements all the more impressive (haye v valuev ?)

I think that won't change. Those of extravagent talent will always want to compete at heavyweight provided it's not too big a leap. As heavies got bigger we lost the natural middleweights then the light-heavyweights. So far it's not too big a leap for the cream of the cruiserweights but if heavies keep growing it might not always be.

[bigman1968]

Well then just the past decade, Wilder fought since 2008, I think Povetkin showed more in the past 10 years.
Actually, I think Tyson Fury is the only one who showed more in the past 10 years, AJ ain't active long enough.

That's because Deontay Wilder didn't have as much of an amateur career and subsequently boxing experience as Povetkin had before he turned pro. So Deontay Wilder had to start off gaining experience by fighting against low level opposition when he turned pro. Only now has he gained the experienced for the elite level.

That's allways the same story, but in reality, Povetkin started as an amateur at the age of 21, Deontay Wilder started as an amateur at the age of 19... So it's really not that far of. At most you could say Povetkin was far more active and also usually fought all the way till he won the final instead of regularly losing in the early rounds.

Povetkin won Russian Junior Championship at 1995, aged 16 yo...and I presume he started boxing couple of years before, at least.
Can’t you state anything without bullshitting???

[bigman1968]

So you are saying that Ruiz should not have fought against the too big opponents he had no chance of beating?

He should never had to face the giants like Hanks, Love, Austin and Gormley who all are 6'4'' or above.

There's a difference between low level giant super heavyweights and top level giant super heavyweights. Sure, Andy Ruiz Jr (and other small heavyweights) can beat giant heavyweights who aren't at the top level. But, Andy Ruiz Jr, Alexander Povetkin, David Haye, Carlos Takam and Bryant Jennings. All whom are small heavyweights shouldn't be allowed to face top level giant super heavyweights like Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury or the Klitschkos.

Oh so now it is about the skills also.

You wan't to make new division for really big and tall boxers that are also supremely skilled

Good Luck finding one-((((

[asdfjkl]

That's because Deontay Wilder didn't have as much of an amateur career and subsequently boxing experience as Povetkin had before he turned pro. So Deontay Wilder had to start off gaining experience by fighting against low level opposition when he turned pro. Only now has he gained the experienced for the elite level.

That's allways the same story, but in reality, Povetkin started as an amateur at the age of 21, Deontay Wilder started as an amateur at the age of 19... So it's really not that far of. At most you could say Povetkin was far more active and also usually fought all the way till he won the final instead of regularly losing in the early rounds.

Povetkin won Russian Junior Championship at 1995, aged 16 yo...and I presume he started boxing couple of years before, at least.
Can’t you state anything without bullshitting???

You presume very wrong, he started in 2000 aged 20.

[Luis Fernando12]

Well then just the past decade, Wilder fought since 2008, I think Povetkin showed more in the past 10 years.
Actually, I think Tyson Fury is the only one who showed more in the past 10 years, AJ ain't active long enough.

That's because Deontay Wilder didn't have as much of an amateur career and subsequently boxing experience as Povetkin had before he turned pro. So Deontay Wilder had to start off gaining experience by fighting against low level opposition when he turned pro. Only now has he gained the experienced for the elite level.

That's allways the same story, but in reality, Povetkin started as an amateur at the age of 21, Deontay Wilder started as an amateur at the age of 19... So it's really not that far of. At most you could say Povetkin was far more active and also usually fought all the way till he won the final instead of regularly losing in the early rounds.

Thanks for that info! I didn't really know that. That makes Povetkin's accomplishments in boxing even more impressive. And it also exposes Deontay Wilder even more of being a cherry picker and a boxer mainly looking to pad his record whilst trying to avoid the best competition out there.

[Luis Fernando12]

So you are saying that Ruiz should not have fought against the too big opponents he had no chance of beating?

He should never had to face the giants like Hanks, Love, Austin and Gormley who all are 6'4'' or above.

There's a difference between low level giant super heavyweights and top level giant super heavyweights. Sure, Andy Ruiz Jr (and other small heavyweights) can beat giant heavyweights who aren't at the top level. But, Andy Ruiz Jr, Alexander Povetkin, David Haye, Carlos Takam and Bryant Jennings. All whom are small heavyweights shouldn't be allowed to face top level giant super heavyweights like Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury or the Klitschkos.

Oh so now it is about the skills also.

You wan't to make new division for really big and tall boxers that are also supremely skilled

Of course it is! Isn't that also the case in other weight divisions too? In an even playing field, the boxer with the greater size advantage wins most of the time? Why shouldn't that rule also apply to the heavyweight division as well?

Gennady Golovkin could probably defeat a 175 pound boxer that happens to be a bum / journeyman (such as Alexander Brand). However, he has very little to no chances of beating the best 175 pound boxers like Sergey Kovalev or Artur Beterbiev because of the size disadvantage. Which is they are divided by weight divisions.

Why shouldn't this rule also apply to the heavyweight division?

[Luis Fernando12]

Marciano knocked out Walcott who was bigger than Frazier.

7 foot tall guys will never be that athletic.

Yes! Eventually, there'll come a point when even 7 foot giant super heavyweights will become athletic. Very few people believed in the 1960's that 6 foot 6 boxers will ever become athletic until the advent of Lennox Lewis and the Klitschkos. Don't hold your breath is all I can say!

Lewis and the Klitschko's developed fighting styles that suited their size and frame. Neither of them was ever going to fight like Ali, or Tyson, because men that size simply cannot, it's biomechanics.

Primo Carnera 6'6", and Jess Willard 6'7" were considered real outliers in their eras, as the average human height was much lower, however, there were still men that size, with the same limitations their size imparts. The thing both lacked however most, was proper schooling, neither of them had any amateur experience, and turned to the sport because promoters saw an opportunity to exploit their size.

Human biomechanics aren't going to change. You're never going to see an olympic weightlifter build like Mo Farah, or a bodybuilder type winning the high jump.

There will be another dominant champ come along, who is around 6'2"-6'4" in the next 20 years, because there are styles of fighting they can employ than bigger men cannot.

I would pick prime holyfield over Wlad all day long, Vitali, tough to call as Vitali was awkward as hell and very tough, Joshua, who knows, not seen the best of him yet, but what is certain is that a prime holyfield had stamina to burn, incredible toughness, and hit hard enough to earn the respect of any man, whilst not being a KO puncher.

Whatever the case may be. You simply can't objectively deny the fact that the modern giant super heavyweight boxers are far more athletic and skilled than past ones. No boxer taller than 6 foot 3 inches before 1980 was ever as skilled and athletic as the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua or Tyson Fury.

Name me one past heavyweight that was as athletic as Deontay Wilder, who was 6 foot 7, prior to 1980. You can't! Simply because such boxers didn't exist.

It's possible that the Klitschkos, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder may be the limit to how athletic and skilled boxers can be at such a height. However, it doesn't change the fact that no boxer shorter than 6 foot 4 inches stand much of a chance at beating them, barring a huge upset!

I hope what you state is true about a dominant heavyweight champion shorter than 6 foot 4, coming into the heavyweight division and dominating. However, the best two 'small heavyweights' since 2000 have been Alexander Povetkin and David Haye. Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield weren't any good any longer. No other heavyweight since 2000, shorter than 6 foot 4 inches is better than Povetkin or or prime Haye. And we all should know what the general consensus is about their chances of winning against super heavyweights like Anthony joshua or Tyson Fury. The chances are slim to none! So the future 'small heavyweights' have to be MUCH better than Povetkin or Haye to have more success at heavyweight.

As for Evander Holyfield, his track record isn't really that good against skilled and athletic super heavyweights. He got destroyed soundly by Riddick Bowe and lost to Lennox Lewis. Proving to be inferior to the only two most skilled and athletic super heavyweights of his era.

Holyfield isn't going to have any more success against Wladimir Klitschko than he did against Lennox Lewis or Riddick Bowe. Holyfield isn't getting past Wladimir Klitschko's jab or isn't getting close enough to be very effective offensively.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yes! Eventually, there'll come a point when even 7 foot giant super heavyweights will become athletic. Very few people believed in the 1960's that 6 foot 6 boxers will ever become athletic until the advent of Lennox Lewis and the Klitschkos. Don't hold your breath is all I can say!

Lewis and the Klitschko's developed fighting styles that suited their size and frame. Neither of them was ever going to fight like Ali, or Tyson, because men that size simply cannot, it's biomechanics.

Primo Carnera 6'6", and Jess Willard 6'7" were considered real outliers in their eras, as the average human height was much lower, however, there were still men that size, with the same limitations their size imparts. The thing both lacked however most, was proper schooling, neither of them had any amateur experience, and turned to the sport because promoters saw an opportunity to exploit their size.

Human biomechanics aren't going to change. You're never going to see an olympic weightlifter build like Mo Farah, or a bodybuilder type winning the high jump.

There will be another dominant champ come along, who is around 6'2"-6'4" in the next 20 years, because there are styles of fighting they can employ than bigger men cannot.

I would pick prime holyfield over Wlad all day long, Vitali, tough to call as Vitali was awkward as hell and very tough, Joshua, who knows, not seen the best of him yet, but what is certain is that a prime holyfield had stamina to burn, incredible toughness, and hit hard enough to earn the respect of any man, whilst not being a KO puncher.

Whatever the case may be. You simply can't objectively deny the fact that the modern giant super heavyweight boxers are far more athletic and skilled than past ones. No boxer taller than 6 foot 3 inches before 1980 was ever as skilled and athletic as the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua or Tyson Fury.

Name me one past heavyweight that was as athletic as Deontay Wilder, who was 6 foot 7, prior to 1980. You can't! Simply because such boxers didn't exist.

It's possible that the Klitschkos, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder may be the limit to how athletic and skilled boxers can be at such a height. However, it doesn't change the fact that no boxer shorter than 6 foot 4 inches stand much of a chance at beating them, barring a huge upset!

I hope what you state is true about a dominant heavyweight champion shorter than 6 foot 4, coming into the heavyweight division and dominating. However, the best two 'small heavyweights' since 2000 have been Alexander Povetkin and David Haye. Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield weren't any good any longer. No other heavyweight since 2000, shorter than 6 foot 4 inches is better than Povetkin or or prime Haye. And we all should know what the general consensus is about their chances of winning against super heavyweights like Anthony joshua or Tyson Fury. The chances are slim to none! So the future 'small heavyweights' have to be MUCH better than Povetkin or Haye to have more success at heavyweight.

As for Evander Holyfield, his track record isn't really that good against skilled and athletic super heavyweights. He got destroyed soundly by Riddick Bowe and lost to Lennox Lewis. Proving to be inferior to the only two most skilled and athletic super heavyweights of his era.

Holyfield isn't going to have any more success against Wladimir Klitschko than he did against Lennox Lewis or Riddick Bowe. Holyfield isn't getting past Wladimir Klitschko's jab or isn't getting close enough to be very effective offensively.

I'm afraid I dont agree at all. Being bigger with bigger muscles doesn't make you 'more athletic thats just what people who don't understand science think.

Holyfield beat Bowe despite being massively outweighed and more thsn held his own in the first fight. In thd 3rd he was within a whisker of stopping Bowe. Do you even watch thr fights you talk about. He was past his best when he fought Lewis, and was competitive in both fights, he clearly outboxed valuev when many years past his prime.

Valuev was the biggest heavyweight of all time but he couldn't punch for shit nor move. Joshua is rippling with muscles but he lacks movement and has average stamina. Lennox Lewis was better in pretty much every department despite looking far less ripped and pumped up.

[Luis Fernando12]

Lewis and the Klitschko's developed fighting styles that suited their size and frame. Neither of them was ever going to fight like Ali, or Tyson, because men that size simply cannot, it's biomechanics.

Primo Carnera 6'6", and Jess Willard 6'7" were considered real outliers in their eras, as the average human height was much lower, however, there were still men that size, with the same limitations their size imparts. The thing both lacked however most, was proper schooling, neither of them had any amateur experience, and turned to the sport because promoters saw an opportunity to exploit their size.

Human biomechanics aren't going to change. You're never going to see an olympic weightlifter build like Mo Farah, or a bodybuilder type winning the high jump.

There will be another dominant champ come along, who is around 6'2"-6'4" in the next 20 years, because there are styles of fighting they can employ than bigger men cannot.

I would pick prime holyfield over Wlad all day long, Vitali, tough to call as Vitali was awkward as hell and very tough, Joshua, who knows, not seen the best of him yet, but what is certain is that a prime holyfield had stamina to burn, incredible toughness, and hit hard enough to earn the respect of any man, whilst not being a KO puncher.

Whatever the case may be. You simply can't objectively deny the fact that the modern giant super heavyweight boxers are far more athletic and skilled than past ones. No boxer taller than 6 foot 3 inches before 1980 was ever as skilled and athletic as the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua or Tyson Fury.

Name me one past heavyweight that was as athletic as Deontay Wilder, who was 6 foot 7, prior to 1980. You can't! Simply because such boxers didn't exist.

It's possible that the Klitschkos, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder may be the limit to how athletic and skilled boxers can be at such a height. However, it doesn't change the fact that no boxer shorter than 6 foot 4 inches stand much of a chance at beating them, barring a huge upset!

I hope what you state is true about a dominant heavyweight champion shorter than 6 foot 4, coming into the heavyweight division and dominating. However, the best two 'small heavyweights' since 2000 have been Alexander Povetkin and David Haye. Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield weren't any good any longer. No other heavyweight since 2000, shorter than 6 foot 4 inches is better than Povetkin or or prime Haye. And we all should know what the general consensus is about their chances of winning against super heavyweights like Anthony joshua or Tyson Fury. The chances are slim to none! So the future 'small heavyweights' have to be MUCH better than Povetkin or Haye to have more success at heavyweight.

As for Evander Holyfield, his track record isn't really that good against skilled and athletic super heavyweights. He got destroyed soundly by Riddick Bowe and lost to Lennox Lewis. Proving to be inferior to the only two most skilled and athletic super heavyweights of his era.

Holyfield isn't going to have any more success against Wladimir Klitschko than he did against Lennox Lewis or Riddick Bowe. Holyfield isn't getting past Wladimir Klitschko's jab or isn't getting close enough to be very effective offensively.

I'm afraid I dont agree at all. Being bigger with bigger muscles doesn't make you 'more athletic thats just what people who don't understand science think.

Holyfield beat Bowe despite being massively outweighed and more thsn held his own in the first fight. In thd 3rd he was within a whisker of stopping Bowe. Do you even watch thr fights you talk about. He was past his best when he fought Lewis, and was competitive in both fights, he clearly outboxed valuev when many years past his prime.

Valuev was the biggest heavyweight of all time but he couldn't punch for poo nor move. Joshua is rippling with muscles but he lacks movement and has average stamina. Lennox Lewis was better in pretty much every department despite looking far less ripped and pumped up.

It's not just about muscles or physical appearance though. It's about speed, agility, fluidity, technical proficiency, stamina, tactic adeptness and etc COMBINED with big super heavyweight size. None of the past heavyweights prior to 1985 that were taller than 6 foot 3 inches in height, ever showed the level of athleticism and boxing skills I've just mentioned that the likes of Anthony Joshua, Lennox Lewis, Deontay Wilder and Tyson Fury have displayed.

In the past, heavyweights taller than 6 foot 3 inches weren't ever as athletic and / or as skilled as the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury or Deontay Wilder. Hence, small heavyweights like Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes and etc were all able to be as successful as they were by becoming the number 1 dominant world heavyweight champion during their era.

However, modern super heavyweights since the advent of Lennox Lewis and the Klitschkos have been so athletic and skilled that those same, small sized heavyweights stand no chance in a division full of those super heavyweights.

Evander Holyfield proved to be indisputably inferior to the top 2 skilled + athletic super heavyweights in Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis during his time. Nikolai Valuev doesn't count because he was big but not very athletic and skilled. Holyfield lost the trilogy against Riddick Bowe and was destroyed in their last fight. And he lost both fights against Lennox Lewis. In other words, proving to be inferior to the only 2 skilled and athletic super heavyweights during his time.

Hopefully, a boxer like Evander Holyfield, Alexander Povetkin and David Haye can come in the future and dominate the heavyweight division by becoming the number 1 heavyweight in the world. But for now, I can't see it happening because the super heavyweights seem a little too much to handle for best small heavyweights today like Povekin or Haye. Despite the fact that the small heavyweights are also very skilled and athletic.

[zorndeslammes]

Absolutely not. The talent pool left at HW would be tiny and frankly terrible. However athletic people say Wilder is, he has horrible balance and technique. He honestly might have gotten slept by Carnera (and don't even try to say that Carnera is unique among the two in terms of suspect wins).

Cruiserweight has had stars and as a result has been a money division in Europe during the Klitschko reign. There's very good small heavyweights there that have not yet had any real need to move up, though I would bet several will. They may not necessarily beat Joshua, but they might beat just about everyone else, which establishes them as valid enough competition. I'd go so far as to say that half the top ten would be beaten by Sergei Kovalev.

[Luis Fernando12]

Absolutely not. The talent pool left at HW would be tiny and frankly terrible. However athletic people say Wilder is, he has horrible balance and technique. He honestly might have gotten slept by Carnera (and don't even try to say that Carnera is unique among the two in terms of suspect wins).

Cruiserweight has had stars and as a result has been a money division in Europe during the Klitschko reign. There's very good small heavyweights there that have not yet had any real need to move up, though I would bet several will. They may not necessarily beat Joshua, but they might beat just about everyone else, which establishes them as valid enough competition. I'd go so far as to say that half the top ten would be beaten by Sergei Kovalev.

I just don't think it's humanly possible or scientifically possible to beat Wladimir Klitschko or even get past his jab when Wlad was in his prime, if his opponents were shorter than 6 foot 4 inches with a shorter reach. Barring flukes or rare upsets of course. But they wouldn't be favored to beat him more times than not, if they fought him 10 times in a row.

Likewise, I also don't think there ever existed a shorter boxer of such heights and reaches that would've been favorite to beat Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua or Tyson Fury either. Nor do I see any dominating in an era which consists of the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua and / or Tyson Fury.

The most skilled current 'small' heavyweight is Alexander Povetkin. How much of a chance do you give him of beating any of those super heavyweights I've mentioned above? If you don't give him much of a chance, do you think there'll arrive even better small heavyweights some time in the future who could beat those super heavyweights? And how much better would they have to be?

[dirk2686]

I just don't think it's humanly possible or scientifically possible to beat Wladimir Klitschko or even get past his jab when Wlad was in his prime, if his opponents were shorter than 6 foot 4 inches with a shorter reach.

I think that does enormous disservice to boxing skill that could very realistically be employed by a six three/two heavyweight.

[Luis Fernando12]

I just don't think it's humanly possible or scientifically possible to beat Wladimir Klitschko or even get past his jab when Wlad was in his prime, if his opponents were shorter than 6 foot 4 inches with a shorter reach.

I think that does enormous disservice to boxing skill that could very realistically be employed by a six three/two heavyweight.

It's not a matter of 'disservice' buts facts. I'm going by what has ACTUALLY HAPPENED. And what has happened is, no boxer shorter than 6 foot 4 inches in the last 2 decade since Lennox Lewis's era ever dominated and became the number 1 heavyweight champion of the world for a prolonged period of time. Upsets of course happen. But I'm talking about actually dominating the heavyweight division consistently.

If shorter boxers could dominate the heavyweight division and become the number 1 heavyweight in the world, and remain one for a prolonged period of time. Then it would've happened by now. But it hasn't in over 2 decades. Perhaps because it is against the laws of physics, science and human possibility for a shorter heavyweight to be the favorite at beating Wladimir Klitschko or even getting past his lead hand. It may also be humanly, scientifically and physically impossible for a shorter heavyweight to ever dominate the heavyweight division by becoming the number 1 heavyweight in the world and remaining one for a prolonged period of time in era consisting of skilled and athletic super heavyweights like Anthony Joshua, Klitschkos and Tyson Fury.

Maybe it's about time we started disregarding smaller and shorter heavyweights as irrelevant from now on in the heavyweight division and just write them off altogether to avoid wasting time by having false expectations of them.

[dirk2686]

How many different people have 'dominated' the heavyweight division? Since Lewis you could realistically say there have only been two 'dominant' champions, and both have the same surname. Even then Vitali is missing a lot of big fights.

People used to talk about a weight difference but Wilder is under 220.