Is Alvarez a cheat?

Is Alvarez guilty of PED use?

Yes
58
88%
No
8
12%
 
Total votes: 66

Wa1nuts
Light Heavyweight
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Wa1nuts »

Grilling Machine wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 00:00 If you boost your free testosterone too much at the lighter weights you risk gaining size at a faster rate than strength, so it's recommended to use a smaller weekly dose that doesn't push you as far over your natural level. This also helps prevent your muscles from outgrowing the rest of your body and leading to injuries from tendon tears and so on. Lots of top powerlifters gain weight slowly with relatively conservative usage.

It's generally easier to catch sprinters for example, since their power gains are sometimes worth the price in additional weight (no weight divisions and lower stamina requirements). The likes of Christie and Chambers were much bigger towards the end of their careers. And even then, those who are caught could've usually evaded with luckier timing.

If the money and desire were there we could implement some form of DNA-profiling for athletes, but you'd never fully succeed in eradicating PEDs. How many times has Serena ‘retired’ now? Most tennis pros feign injury to cycle every year or so. Were profiling a thing in boxing, you'd see lots more prospects doing white-collar to learn their trade while cycling, turning pro later than they otherwise would've. It would curb pros racing through the weights, I suppose.

I think it's high time to talk about the legalisation of monitored usage. The effects of something like Nandrolone diminish at higher doses, and it's relatively safe at lower levels (for those without family histories of heart problems and such, although I wouldn't chance it). Because if you were getting a good chunk of its benefits at the legal dosage, the temptation to risk a ban for further marginal gains would be lessened.

Ultimately, I think it's still an image thing, where sponsors are highly aware of how damaging the reality would be if most people were informed. There are still millions who believe that Bolt was clean because of his stride, and even Cram — one of his biggest cheerleaders — avoided calling him clean towards the end of his career, reaching for ‘pure’ instead.

Some people put my view down to jealously, but I'm a terrible sprinter so that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's not like I'm a clean 10-second rival, and he'd still be miles ahead of me if he took to Fury's home-cooking for a few years. Ben Johnson's twenty years older and he could still run me close! I find it interesting to consider who the last clean sprinter was, and I think it was probably one of those from the 10.1 and 10.2 groups. 9.9s were the best from 1968 to 1987, soon after which 9.8s become the elite standard.

Apols, I've waffled on a bit. :zzz:
The problem is people see it as black and white they assume a trace amount of clen = a cheat. In reality I think most elite athletes take some sort of banned substance. Personally I dont think a boxer that easily makes weight, taking clen 2 months before weigh in will have any affect on the fight, but people are too ignorant to look in to it.

If Boxer A has 20% higher testosterone than Boxer B without taking steroids does that mean hes cheating? Should boxer B be allowed to inject a small amount of testosterone to match him? The obvious answer would be no. But how do we know Boxer A hasnt injected that extra bit of tesosterone? Especially with steroids that have extremely short half lives for example winstrol, test acetate etc. That wont show up in a drugs test a few days after injecting. Without profiling their hormones all year round it would be impossible to tell. Same for HGH.

A poster said in another thread clen can be used as a masking agent an has a half life of 48 hours. Why would any boxer use a banned substance to mask another banned substance? Especially if a lot of banned substances that are beneficial to boxers have a shorter half life than clen
Autobarn
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Autobarn »

leejonesjnr wrote: 06 Mar 2018, 19:09
jamamb wrote: 06 Mar 2018, 18:35 ya nery had those trace amounts and made weight for the first fight, then for the second fight without a positive announced was 5 pounds over the limit. clen among many functions helps ppl cut weight significantly
Why would a boxer who avoided boxing as high as 160 just a few fights ago need help cutting weight 3 months away from a contest?
All that weight hopping, down from middle to light middle, up to super middle then down to middle

He was moving down in weight for the biggest fight of his career.

Alvarez is a multi millionaire and can afford to get better meat. He can get meat from wherever he wants. As a big weight drainer he will have a proper nutritionist and they surely would never let him eat anything that would compromise him...

WBA president seems very convinced he’s innocent and ate contaminated meat. Protecting the big money generator.

Americans blame the doctor for prescribing x drug...South Americans blame it on the meat.
bripez
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by bripez »

I was listening to Talksport yesterday on about Bradley Wiggins - they had this Doctor on who was an expert in respitaory diseases.

The Doctor said that 5% of the UK population has asthma - when Alan Brazil (hardly Paxman) asked him why then that over 40% of the Olympic Cycling team have asthma? - the doctor said that riding around all day outside inhaling pollen might be a problem!! fooking bollox !!

When I was at school there was only a couple of kids with asthma and they used to avoid PE - maybe they should have taken up bike riding instead !!

They are all at it - all sports.
Boxerbeetle
Light Heavyweight
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Boxerbeetle »

bripez wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 08:08 I was listening to Talksport yesterday on about Bradley Wiggins - they had this Doctor on who was an expert in respitaory diseases.

The Doctor said that 5% of the UK population has asthma - when Alan Brazil (hardly Paxman) asked him why then that over 40% of the Olympic Cycling team have asthma? - the doctor said that riding around all day outside inhaling pollen might be a problem!! fooking bollox !!

When I was at school there was only a couple of kids with asthma and they used to avoid PE - maybe they should have taken up bike riding instead !!

They are all at it - all sports.
Interesting article here about athletes & asthma:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinkin ... oes-it-he/
tobyh5
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by tobyh5 »

Boxerbeetle wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 08:56
Interesting article here about athletes & asthma:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinkin ... oes-it-he/
To summarize, this is the guy selling them the gear and he has studied enough to throw out plausible reasons for the reported increase in the condition

*disclaimer, I am joking of course and they do all have asthma and no athlete is a cheat.
bripez
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by bripez »

tobyh5 wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 09:03
Boxerbeetle wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 08:56
Interesting article here about athletes & asthma:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinkin ... oes-it-he/
To summarize, this is the guy selling them the gear and he has studied enough to throw out plausible reasons for the reported increase in the condition

*disclaimer, I am joking of course and they do all have asthma and no athlete is a cheat.
:TU: I agree.

I like this bit:

“The truth,” Dr John Dickinson tells me “is that there is a lack of education on why athletes develop asthma.

So this expert is saying he doesn't know why 40% of Olympic cyclists have asthma compared to 5% of the population? - ok then ....... it must be that the Cycling coaches congregate around the asthma clinics to recruit new cyclists or something.
Boxerbeetle
Light Heavyweight
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Boxerbeetle »

bripez wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 09:16
tobyh5 wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 09:03
Boxerbeetle wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 08:56
Interesting article here about athletes & asthma:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinkin ... oes-it-he/
To summarize, this is the guy selling them the gear and he has studied enough to throw out plausible reasons for the reported increase in the condition

*disclaimer, I am joking of course and they do all have asthma and no athlete is a cheat.
:TU: I agree.

I like this bit:

“The truth,” Dr John Dickinson tells me “is that there is a lack of education on why athletes develop asthma.

So this expert is saying he doesn't know why 40% of Olympic cyclists have asthma compared to 5% of the population? - ok then ....... it must be that the Cycling coaches congregate around the asthma clinics to recruit new cyclists or something.
For the record - I don’t believe it either :lol: Just thought it was interesting.
Counter-puncher
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Counter-puncher »

bripez wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 09:16 it must be that the Cycling coaches congregate around the asthma clinics to recruit new cyclists or something.
:lol:
tiny_acres
Middleweight
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by tiny_acres »

Counter-puncher wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 10:07
bripez wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 09:16 it must be that the Cycling coaches congregate around the asthma clinics to recruit new cyclists or something.
:lol:
Honestly one of my favorite posts. :lol:
Instant classic
MarkMcBurney
Super Middleweight
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by MarkMcBurney »

jamamb wrote: 06 Mar 2018, 18:25 could it be merely 'trace' amounts left if someone used it a few months ago and then stopped before testing, thinking it would be long enough off it to not get caught ?
Clenbuterol only has a biological half life of 48 hours.
jamamb
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by jamamb »

so its only in your system 48 hours? you can load up on it for months and months and its gone if you stop for acouple days?
MarkMcBurney
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by MarkMcBurney »

jamamb wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 10:53 so its only in your system 48 hours? you can load up on it for months and months and its gone if you stop for acouple days?
Correct.
jamamb
Lightweight
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by jamamb »

interesting, from a quick google multiple sources are saying longer and that half life doesnt equal detection period, and that detection time is always longer then half life

are you sure half life = detetction time?
MarkMcBurney
Super Middleweight
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by MarkMcBurney »

jamamb wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 11:23 interesting, from a quick google multiple sources are saying longer and that half life doesnt equal detection period

are you sure half life = detetction time?
Half life is the time taken to deteriorate to half it's biological structure, after that it's gradually absorbed into your blood stream, so technically I was wrong in that it wouldn't be 'gone' after 48 hrs, however it's a matter of days taking into account the level at which it can be detected in the blood, rather than months.
happyNY18
Lightweight
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by happyNY18 »

jamamb wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 10:53 so its only in your system 48 hours? you can load up on it for months and months and its gone if you stop for acouple days?

No. Half-life is self-explanatory. It's how long it takes for the drugs potency to half.

If You have 1 gram of a drug per 100ml in your blood, and the half-life is 48 hours, then 48 hours later it will be 0.5g per 100ml. 48 hours later it will be 0.25g. And so on until it's completely flushed out.

In Canelo's case his team have clearly mis-judged the half-life calculations, they would have aimed to have all his illegal substances out his system by the time he signs the VADA contract. A mis-calucation combined with a earlier-than-expected test has got him busted.
bripez
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by bripez »

Maybe he just had a burger the night before?

Seriously though, I am really disillusioned with sport at the moment with the amount of positive tests, excuses and cover ups.

And don't get me started on Mo Farah - another one who is bang at it.

Boxing is different though - if a boxer on gear seriously hurt his opponent then that would be very difficult to live with.
ewenhay
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by ewenhay »

bripez wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 13:19 Maybe he just had a burger the night before?

Seriously though, I am really disillusioned with sport at the moment with the amount of positive tests, excuses and cover ups.

And don't get me started on Mo Farah - another one who is bang at it.

Boxing is different though - if a boxer on gear seriously hurt his opponent then that would be very difficult to live with.
I agree.

Limits are agreed and set. If you don't meet the limits there should be pre agreed sanctions. No excuses and no exceptions.

Contact sports are a completely different animal as you have already stated. the risk of fatality is already high enough.
Autobarn
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Autobarn »

The thing that almost makes this funny - in a terrible way - is that he still had to run four rounds in the middle of the fight just to get through the 12 round distance. Despite being enhanced. And that for every half minute or full minute of good attacking, he had to take two minutes off. Hope Golovkin isn’t too old and plodding - too complacenct and too comfortable with the financial side of things - to get rid of this manufactured fighter.

Hope this doesn’t mean Miguel Cotto’s going to come out of retirement, “he was on steroids when he beat me”; cue another couple more years of dismal cash in fights.
Terminator666
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Terminator666 »

If it had been Joe Blogs a fighter who earns £1500 at domestic level, he would have likely been banned
Autobarn
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Autobarn »

Look how fast WBA president Mendoza was to defend Alvarez - suspiciously fast, preposterously certain of his innocence.
Yes We Can
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Yes We Can »

Terminator666 wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 11:02 If it had been Joe Blogs a fighter who earns £1500 at domestic level, he would have likely been banned
Nail. Head.
lurkyshaka
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by lurkyshaka »

Terminator666 wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 11:02 If it had been Joe Blogs a fighter who earns £1500 at domestic level, he would have likely been banned
Exactly......the corruption that surrounds Alvarez is f*cking sickening. He's a cheat and he got caught out, but that's okay because with him all the rules and regulations are apparently there to be broken. Judges in his pocket, allowed to pop hot for PEDS,.......Golovkin could lay this cheating f*cker out and they'd still find a way to save him.
Jackson328
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Jackson328 »

bripez wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 08:08 I was listening to Talksport yesterday on about Bradley Wiggins - they had this Doctor on who was an expert in respitaory diseases.

The Doctor said that 5% of the UK population has asthma - when Alan Brazil (hardly Paxman) asked him why then that over 40% of the Olympic Cycling team have asthma? - the doctor said that riding around all day outside inhaling pollen might be a problem!! fooking bollox !!
That does seem quite plausible to me in fairness. I've suffered from asthma for years but usually the allergic type i.e. cats, house dust mites etc. However I once asked my GP why it seems to affect me more during the summer months and he said thats probably due to spending more time outdoors in the better weather and longer days so more exposure to pollen and exhaust fumes from traffic. Also some of these cycling races involve competing at higher altitude, King Of The Mountains for example, where the air is thinner.

I'm not defending Alvarez btw, I voted 'yes' in the poll and I also think Bradley Wiggins and Team Sky were cheating, probably Bolt and Mo Farah were too. I follow rugby league and they usually deal with doping swiftly and ruthlessly, boxing should follow suit. But I do think this doctor has a valid point about greater exposure to asthma-inducing allergens whilst cycling, it makes perfect sense to me.
jamamb
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by jamamb »

it makes 5 percent --> 40 percent sense to you?

seems rather an extreme jump imo. is there evidence being outside a lot makes that much of a difference?

i wonder if construction workers are simalarly asthmatic
Jackson328
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Re: Is Alvarez a cheat?

Post by Jackson328 »

jamamb wrote: 08 Mar 2018, 16:51 it makes 5 percent --> 40 percent sense to you?

seems rather an extreme jump imo. is there evidence being outside a lot makes that much of a difference?

i wonder if construction workers are simalarly asthmatic
Not to those extremes, 40% is clearly a huge amount but I'm not talking about the numbers, I'm talking about what the doctor said regarding a higher risk of asthma symptoms from being outside exerting yourself, that is a valid claim in my opinion. If I walked into a cattery for example I'm certain I would just fuck1ng die! I am that sensitive to them! So I just avoid cats like the plague, I keep well away from them especially in confined areas. Anyone who has ever suffered even one asthma attack in their life will never ever forget the experience and will avoid any circumstance that induced it. For me thats quite simple, stay away from cats, keep a nasty little terrier close by and hoover the carpets and clean the bedding regularly. Also introduce allergen and dust eating house plants.

If you are asthmatic and work on a building site then yes there will be increased risk of asthma attack from exposure to lots of types of dust, especially cement and brick dust. So I'd choose another job personally but if you are an elite level cyclist riding for big pay that is harder to drop so you'd take medication to cope, simple. Whats happening in cycling in my opinion is that some teams and riders are exploiting the fact that cyclists have more valid reasons for using asthma preventive drugs so they are asking for TUE's to that effect. The fact that most asthma drugs are corticosteroids and can enhance performance is manna from heaven to them. It's legal cheating basically but I still believe what that doctor said is true.
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