Oliver McCall vs...

[Kalan]

You're showing that you've been dishonest about your age again. If you were alive for the Lennox Lewis vs Oliver McCall 1 fight you'd know that Lennox Lewis wasn't "The Dominant Heavyweight Champion of the World" at that time. He was a contender with a belt.

He didn't really gain recognition as THE MAN at Heavyweight until the win over Holyfield years later.

Someone could have been alive at the time and now think that Lewis was the dominant heavyweight in the world at the time of the premature stoppage of the first McCall-Lewis fight.
However, someone who was actually following the sport at the time would not have made that claim.

Or you could've just simply studied the sport a little bit and figured these things out. I wasn't watching Boxing back in 1994, but I know the Boxing scene in 1994 pretty well because I've read up on it, and seen many fights from that era.

Still though I think the words here from Kalan show that either

A. He wasn't watching Boxing in 1994

B. Wasn't alive in 1994

or C. Tends to write revisionist history and pretend things were a different way than they were.

He's already shown a tendency toward C, but perhaps A or B could be a sympton of C.

You're showing severe symptom's of a different sort gilg...Dissociative Identity Disorder... You suffer from the delusion that you're somebody who actually knows what he's talking about...

I suggest you read up a little more on the era and discover who was the only undefeated Heavyweight Champion at that time who actually had a Title Defense... If you that brain thinking really hard you may discover it was Lewis.

[gilgamesh]

One thing I found interesting about the two McCall vs Lewis fights. Obviously everyone remembers McCall's infamous emotional breakdown in the 2nd fight, but he damn near looks like he's having a near meltdown prior to the start of the 1st fight with Lewis as well. I can't tell if the look is "He's scared", "He's so worked up he's damn near in tears" or what. I guess he was just a really high strung guy, but go back, and look at McCall as he's entering the ring, and standing there in the Intros for the 1st Lewis fight.

I always found that a bit amusing.

Based on his performance, I think Kalan was r...r...r...r...right about his being amped up as well as McCall's overall performance. Watch it again as I did without the volume. It was a very determined and prepared McCall.

I've seen the fight multiple times. I've never disputed that McCall was in his best form, and was ready to go that night.

I still don't think THIS McCall beats Holyfield, Bowe or Tyson however, but the McCall from the 1st Lewis fight would surely do better than just about any other version of McCall that ever stepped into a prize ring.

[oogiebe]

One thing I found interesting about the two McCall vs Lewis fights. Obviously everyone remembers McCall's infamous emotional breakdown in the 2nd fight, but he damn near looks like he's having a near meltdown prior to the start of the 1st fight with Lewis as well. I can't tell if the look is "He's scared", "He's so worked up he's damn near in tears" or what. I guess he was just a really high strung guy, but go back, and look at McCall as he's entering the ring, and standing there in the Intros for the 1st Lewis fight.

I always found that a bit amusing.

Based on his performance, I think Kalan was r...r...r...r...right about his being amped up as well as McCall's overall performance. Watch it again as I did without the volume. It was a very determined and prepared McCall.

I've seen the fight multiple times. I've never disputed that McCall was in his best form, and was ready to go that night.

I still don't think THIS McCall beats Holyfield, Bowe or Tyson however, but the McCall from the 1st Lewis fight would surely do better than just about any other version of McCall that ever stepped into a prize ring.

Yup. Couldn't have beaten prime Tyson for sure; would've given Holyfield hell, just based on size and strength, but...I think he could've taken Bowe. The caveat is that McCall would have never kept it all together anyway.

[gilgamesh]

Someone could have been alive at the time and now think that Lewis was the dominant heavyweight in the world at the time of the premature stoppage of the first McCall-Lewis fight.
However, someone who was actually following the sport at the time would not have made that claim.

Or you could've just simply studied the sport a little bit and figured these things out. I wasn't watching Boxing back in 1994, but I know the Boxing scene in 1994 pretty well because I've read up on it, and seen many fights from that era.

Still though I think the words here from Kalan show that either

A. He wasn't watching Boxing in 1994

B. Wasn't alive in 1994

or C. Tends to write revisionist history and pretend things were a different way than they were.

He's already shown a tendency toward C, but perhaps A or B could be a sympton of C.

You're showing severe symptom's of a different sort gilg...Dissociative Identity Disorder... You suffer from the delusion that you're somebody who actually knows what he's talking about...

I suggest you read up a little more on the era and discover who was the only undefeated Heavyweight Champion at that time who actually had a Title Defense... If you that brain thinking really hard you may discover it was Lewis.

I've forgotten more about Boxing than you've ever shown yourself to know.

I realize Lennox Lewis was undefeated at the time. I also realize there's only ever really ONE Heavyweight Champion, and Lennox wasn't it in 1994.

He was a very good fighter though, and certainly one of the top dogs in the division. So I'm not saying McCall's win wasn't extremely significant, but he wasn't recognized as THE Champion at the time as a result of his win over Lewis. He was simply a contender with a belt...same as Lewis had been.

[gilgamesh]

Based on his performance, I think Kalan was r...r...r...r...right about his being amped up as well as McCall's overall performance. Watch it again as I did without the volume. It was a very determined and prepared McCall.

I've seen the fight multiple times. I've never disputed that McCall was in his best form, and was ready to go that night.

I still don't think THIS McCall beats Holyfield, Bowe or Tyson however, but the McCall from the 1st Lewis fight would surely do better than just about any other version of McCall that ever stepped into a prize ring.

Yup. I think he could've taken Bowe.

The Bowe from the Golota fights or the fat version of Bowe from the Jesse Ferguson fight maybe. I don't think he'd do well against the best version of Riddick. Which was pretty short lived, but still very effective.

[oogiebe]

I've seen the fight multiple times. I've never disputed that McCall was in his best form, and was ready to go that night.

I still don't think THIS McCall beats Holyfield, Bowe or Tyson however, but the McCall from the 1st Lewis fight would surely do better than just about any other version of McCall that ever stepped into a prize ring.

Yup. I think he could've taken Bowe.

The Bowe from the Golota fights or the fat version of Bowe from the Jesse Ferguson fight maybe. I don't think he'd do well against the best version of Riddick. Which was pretty short lived, but still very effective.

Fair enough. (as I always say) I've never been impressed with Bowe. Runs from adversity.

[gilgamesh]

I don't think anybody is impressed by Bowe's ducking of Lennox Lewis, but I've certainly never been overly impressed by Oliver McCall either. Other than having one of the hardest chins in the history of the Heavyweight division McCall was thoroughly unspectacular. He was just another Heavyweight. He just happened to have a head like an anvil.

In fact I wonder how he matches up with other "Iron jawed" Heavies?

He's definitely better than Randall "Texx" Cobb, but have people ever discussed Oliver McCall vs George Chuvalo? That could be an interesting conversation.

[oogiebe]

I don't think anybody is impressed by Bowe's ducking of Lennox Lewis, but I've certainly never been overly impressed by Oliver McCall either. Other than having one of the hardest chins in the history of the Heavyweight division McCall was thoroughly unspectacular. He was just another Heavyweight. He just happened to have a head like an anvil.

I completely agree, however; Kalan is referring to THAT McCall, not the usual McCall. I know it is a BIG assumption to use that McCall, but that's the topic.

[gilgamesh]

I don't think anybody is impressed by Bowe's ducking of Lennox Lewis, but I've certainly never been overly impressed by Oliver McCall either. Other than having one of the hardest chins in the history of the Heavyweight division McCall was thoroughly unspectacular. He was just another Heavyweight. He just happened to have a head like an anvil.

I completely agree, however; Kalan is referring to THAT McCall, not the usual McCall. I know it is a BIG assumption to use that McCall, but that's the topic.

I mean McCall wasn't some superman on that night either. He caught Lennox Lewis with a good shot. It happens. Hasim Rahman caught him in 2001. It happens.

You take the versions of Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall that beat Lewis and they're still certainly very beatable for most Heavies...hell even Lewis himself could beat those versions of those guys with better preparation of what they were gonna be coming at him with.

The best Riddick Bowe I ever saw is significantly better than the best Oliver McCall I've ever seen. A lesser Riddick Bowe as we see in the 2nd and 3rd Holyfield fights is STILL better than any version of McCall I've ever seen.

A lot is probably owed to Emanuel Steward devising a fantastic strategy for McCall in the 1st Lewis fight. A good coach and a good gameplan can go a long way for a guy, even if he's the lesser fighter he's giving himself his best chance at winning the fight with a good gameplan. Such was the case with McCall vs Lewis 1.

[Kalan]

Okay... So Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson refused to fight Lewis for ages -- and when they did finally fight him they fell through their asses big time and barely showed an offense... despite the outrageously rigged judging of Lewis-Holyfield 1.

But the Steward coached, psyched to the skies version of McCall who put Lewis away in 2 doesn't match up???

[gilgamesh]

Okay... So Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson refused to fight Lewis for ages -- and when they did finally fight him they fell through their asses big time and barely showed an offense... despite the outrageously rigged judging of Lewis-Holyfield 1.

But the Steward coached, psyched to the skies version of McCall who put Lewis away in 2 doesn't match up???

You keep missing the key point.

Bowe, Holyfield and Tyson ALL could take a punch better than Lewis. McCall ain't knocking any of those guys out, and he ain't decisioning any of 'em. He's not gonna win those fights.

He'd hang in there, and land his share of shots in all 3 fights, but he wouldn't win.

Lewis had improved significantly by the time the Holyfield bouts came about from the fighter you saw against McCall. He had corrected many of his early flaws.

[Kalan]

Okay... So Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson refused to fight Lewis for ages -- and when they did finally fight him they fell through their asses big time and barely showed an offense... despite the outrageously rigged judging of Lewis-Holyfield 1.

But the Steward coached, psyched to the skies version of McCall who put Lewis away in 2 doesn't match up???

You keep missing the key point.

Bowe, Holyfield and Tyson ALL could take a punch better than Lewis. McCall ain't knocking any of those guys out, and he ain't decisioning any of 'em. He's not gonna win those fights.

He'd hang in there, and land his share of shots in all 3 fights, but he wouldn't win.

Lewis had improved significantly by the time the Holyfield bouts came about from the fighter you saw against McCall. He had corrected many of his early flaws.

No... You're missing big time... Those 3 guys could never make McCall blink with their fuddy little power.... Lewis & Bowe vs Golota (big difference in power there) ..... Lewis & Tyson vs Ruddock (big difference in power there) ..... Lewis & Holyfield vs Tyson (Lennox stretched the lad) ..... Lewis head to head against any of the 3... No offense from any of them.

[gilgamesh]

There's more to winning a Boxing match than taking a punch well.

Holyfield could OUTBOX McCall

Bowe could OUTBOX McCall

Tyson could OUTBOX McCall

They're all simply more skilled than him. I agree with you he could take a punch better than all 3 of them, but he couldn't give one better than any of them, and they were all more skilled and would land more than he would.

Before you point out to me that these guys have been stopped.

Yes you are correct. They've been stopped. Holyfield was stopped by Bowe, who as I've established is better than McCall, and he was stopped by Toney when he was an aging fighter...he likely could've continued, but his cornerman saving him from further embarrassment threw in the towel. So he wasn't "Knocked out" by Toney. He was stopped due to his cornerman deciding he'd seen enough.

Tyson usually lost by KO, but it usually took some doing to put him down. Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis all had to chop on him for quite a while before they finally finished him.

The Tyson that went down relatively easy against Danny Williams and Kevin McBride was finished, and had no business being in a Boxing ring really. He either wanted a 1st or 2nd round KO or to hell with it was his attitude then.

As for Bowe. Bowe was always tough. Though he looked like sh*t against Golota, he took A LOT of heavy shots, and stood up to most of them though he was dropped a few times in those fights I think. They were brutal shots, and he took 'em. He was shot by that point I assume because of all the ups and downs with his weight which had taken a toll on his body. (a story you're about to see repeat itself in the form of one Tyson Fury...but...time will well in regards to all that)...but he still took a good shot.


They're all more skilled than McCall though, and I don't think there's any way you could look at these guys at their bests objectively and not see that Tyson, Bowe and Holyfield all show a higher level of skill and sophistication in their technique than McCall ever did. McCall was a just a tough, strong guy who was dangerous because of that, but he never had the craft that these 3 had.

This is not an insult to McCall either. He's still a noteworthy Heavyweight. It's just that you're talking about 3 guys who are Top 20 All Time Heavyweights, and McCall simply isn't in that league. Despite his one big win. Great fighters have more than just one big win on their record. Great fighters can do it more than just one time.

Wound up writing a freakin' book here. Sorry about that

[oogiebe]

No worries. Great post on this! Here's my final take. If we can pick McCall specific fight, then:

McCall (from Lewis I) v. Lewis (from Rahman II) - KO for Lewis

McCall (from Lewis I) v. Bowe (Holyfield III) - UD for bowe (possibly late stoppage)

McCall (from Lewis I) v. Tyson (Spinks) - Tyson within 5.

[Boxing Writer]

One thing I found interesting about the two McCall vs Lewis fights. Obviously everyone remembers McCall's infamous emotional breakdown in the 2nd fight, but he damn near looks like he's having a near meltdown prior to the start of the 1st fight with Lewis as well. I can't tell if the look is "He's scared", "He's so worked up he's damn near in tears" or what. I guess he was just a really high strung guy, but go back, and look at McCall as he's entering the ring, and standing there in the Intros for the 1st Lewis fight.

I always found that a bit amusing.

Yeah, I remember that well. He also looked at the edge of meltdown while entering the ring against 45-years-old Larry Holmes.

[oogiebe]

One thing I found interesting about the two McCall vs Lewis fights. Obviously everyone remembers McCall's infamous emotional breakdown in the 2nd fight, but he damn near looks like he's having a near meltdown prior to the start of the 1st fight with Lewis as well. I can't tell if the look is "He's scared", "He's so worked up he's damn near in tears" or what. I guess he was just a really high strung guy, but go back, and look at McCall as he's entering the ring, and standing there in the Intros for the 1st Lewis fight.

I always found that a bit amusing.

Yeah, I remember that well. He also looked at the edge of meltdown while entering the ring against 45-years-old Larry Holmes.

How his handlers didn't get into trouble after putting McCall in fights he was so emotionally not ready for is beyond me.

[ewenhay]

As per usual it's the best ever MCCall against the very worst Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield etc.

For what it's worth I give MCCall a punchers chance against any of them as the Lewis fight demonstrated but prime for prime I'd back all 3 to win 9 fights out of 10 against MCCall as I would Lewis.

[oogiebe]

As per usual it's the best ever MCCall against the very worst Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield etc.

For what it's worth I give MCCall a punchers chance against any of them as the Lewis fight demonstrated but prime for prime I'd back all 3 to win 9 fights out of 10 against MCCall as I would Lewis.

See my post above. Since we're picking a specific McCall, I picked a specific Lewis, Bowe, and Tyson. That was certainly missing.

[Kalan]

......
Yes you are correct. They've been stopped. Holyfield was stopped by Bowe, who as I've established is better than McCall, and he was stopped by Toney when he was an aging fighter...he likely could've continued, but his cornerman saving him from further embarrassment threw in the towel. So he wasn't "Knocked out" by Toney. He was stopped due to his cornerman deciding he'd seen enough ......

Tyson usually lost by KO, but it usually took some doing to put him down. Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis all had to chop on him
As for Bowe. Bowe was always tough. Though he looked like sh*t against Golota ..... They're all more skilled than McCall

Bowe wasn’t tough. Against a big, powerhouse puncher Bowe would be shitt. Tyson was super hittable as 42/1 underdog as Buster Douglas proved. Holyfield was too small for an aggressive Steward trained McCall going 235.. Evander was wide open for right hands and that's why he got knocked out.. A Steward trained McCall would be on him.

And they're not more skillful than a Steward trained and coached McCall.. With Steward in his corner McCall beats them.. McCall was like Joe Louis.. He needed a collaborator who knew the game inside out.. “He’s seeing your right hand. You have to get it in there faster and smoother. Your jab is working well, but your timing is bit off cuz your feints are too big. Stab him nice’n easy – and loosen up – you’re too tight.. Try to get an inch closer because he’s not comfortable. He’s feeling the pressure. When you land the hook good throw the right uppercut. He’ll duck right into it” ... “SECONDS OUT”

As opposed to… “How do you feel? Take a deep breath. Okay once more, breathe deeply, once more, that’s good. Hey the Vaseline guys. No no, the other box. And hand me the water bottle please. Okay now, take a drink. Now swallow it. Okay now, the fight might be close. We need this next round. Let your hands go.” ... “SECONDS OUT”

[gilgamesh]

No doubt McCall was better served as a boxer under the tutelage of Emanuel Steward, we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not he was capable of beating Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe.

But on that we do agree. McCall with Steward in his corner was definitely better off.

[Kalan]

He wasn't just a lot better... He was freakin' great with Steward in his corner... They hit it off real well, so I was a little bit surprised that Steward would take off for Lewis when McCall fought damned near a perfect fight against him.

Steward moved around a lot... He did train Bowe and Holyfield for a while as well... But he'd see another Heavyweight he thought would beat everybody and off he'd go... He stuck with Lewis and Wladimir for the duration, which is better.

[Kalan]

McCall was a great puncher... He could get anybody out....but he was a great boxer too if he had his head on straight.

If he was messed up he didn't want to get in the ring.. "Come on Ollie, It's 800,000 pounds....we can't call it off."

He was a tad like Mike Tyson and needed the right people around him... You can't have flakes around an unstable person... They're too trusting like a child.. When people disappoint them badly they break down. They break emotionally.

When Jack Blackburn died Joe Louis went off the reservation.. He bought tape and put it all over the AC vents because spies were blowing poison gas in on him.. He'd make a tent with chairs and blankets and crawled in there to sleep.

Frank Bruno thought he was Jockey Frankie Dettori... His actions got so severe he needed 10 policemen to restrain him.

[gilgamesh]

Oliver McCall would probably like to talk to you Kalan. You probably think he was a better fighter than even he himself ever thought he was. You'd probably make him feel good about himself.

[Kalan]

Oliver McCall would probably like to talk to you Kalan. You probably think he was a better fighter than even he himself ever thought he was. You'd probably make him feel good about himself.

Brother!!! I DON'T actually think McCall was that good... He was really great for 1 fight... He can't bottle that performance and use it in his next fight... He has to train enthusiastically and get really for the next guy .... Steward or no Steward.

Most guys on that level don't need their hand held.... He couldn't operate without a great trainer and motivator.

[gilgamesh]

Oliver McCall would probably like to talk to you Kalan. You probably think he was a better fighter than even he himself ever thought he was. You'd probably make him feel good about himself.

Brother!!! I DON'T actually think McCall was that good... He was really great for 1 fight... He can't bottle that performance and use it in his next fight... He has to train enthusiastically and get really for the next guy .... Steward or no Steward.

Most guys on that level don't need their hand held.... He couldn't operate without a great trainer and motivator.

Alright then