SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[Cojimar 1946]

Also, as I pointed out earlier in the 90s the top guys generally didn't face each other which makes it hard to know how good they were. If they had actually faced one another we would have a better idea of their strengths and weaknesses. Bowe avoided all the divisions big punchers for instance. If he had faced someone like Tyson or Lewis we would have a better idea of how durable he is.

[Cojimar 1946]

Also I think that in the 2010s the division has improved considerably to the level where it could match or possibly even better the 1990s.

[Kalan]

Another thing I find perplexing is that people are often going off about how the Klitschko's fought in a crappy era but a lot of the guys Lewis fought were younger fighters from the same era as the Klitschko's-Golota, Grant, Briggs, Rahman, Tua, etc.

You seem to find everything perplexing. Obviously there was some overlap between Lewis and the Klitschkos; so some of the same guys would be around. However, take the earlier part of Lewis career and compare it to the heavyweight division after Lewis retired and when the Klitschkos were still fighting.
It isn't even close. It was much better in the 1990s. You can point to stupid stats like weights and deceiving win/loss records all want but it doesn't matter.

"Stupid Stats?" .... That's American bs propaganda... Alp is American biased... Generationally biased... Era biased... and takes it 1 step further.... He argues that smaller Heavyweights are better than bigger Heavyweights.

He does it in such a dishonest manner as to exclude Klitschko-Byrd... Klitschko-Haye... Klitschko-Chambers... Lewis-Tyson... Lewis-Holyfield... Bowe-Holyfield (Bowe won the trilogy with a KO in largely because he was bigger and stronger), Ibeabuchi-Byrd and other significant match-ups of the last generation where size played a role.

But the last generation has greater Worldwide Competition and fewer size mismatches .... Look at the 60's and 70's.

Liston-Patterson... Ali-Patterson... Ali-Cooper... Ali-Mildenberger... Ali-London... Ali-Folley... Ali-Quarry... Ali-Ellis... Ali had a significant size advantage over most of his 60's challengers.... Frazier -Foster... Frazier-Daniels... Frazier-Zyglwicz.. Frazier-Ellis... Frazier-Quarry... Then go to Foreman... Foreman-Frazier.... Foreman-Roman.... Foreman had a 12-pound pull on Norton, who was skinny when he first came up... That certainly helped George overpower the head first swinger.

No intelligent man can sit there with a straight face and tell us that smallness is an advantage in Heavyweight Boxing.

[oogiebe]

Another thing I find perplexing is that people are often going off about how the Klitschko's fought in a crappy era but a lot of the guys Lewis fought were younger fighters from the same era as the Klitschko's-Golota, Grant, Briggs, Rahman, Tua, etc.

You seem to find everything perplexing. Obviously there was some overlap between Lewis and the Klitschkos; so some of the same guys would be around. However, take the earlier part of Lewis career and compare it to the heavyweight division after Lewis retired and when the Klitschkos were still fighting.
It isn't even close. It was much better in the 1990s. You can point to stupid stats like weights and deceiving win/loss records all want but it doesn't matter.

"Stupid Stats?" .... That's American bs propaganda... Alp is American biased... Generationally biased... Era biased... and takes it 1 step further.... He argues that smaller Heavyweights are better than bigger Heavyweights.

He does it in such a dishonest manner as to exclude Klitschko-Byrd... Klitschko-Haye... Klitschko-Chambers... Lewis-Tyson... Lewis-Holyfield... Bowe-Holyfield (Bowe won the trilogy with a KO in largely because he was bigger and stronger), Ibeabuchi-Byrd and other significant match-ups of the last generation where size played a role.

But the last generation has greater Worldwide Competition and fewer size mismatches .... Look at the 60's and 70's.

Liston-Patterson... Ali-Patterson... Ali-Cooper... Ali-Mildenberger... Ali-London... Ali-Folley... Ali-Quarry... Ali-Ellis... Ali had a significant size advantage over most of his 60's challengers.... Frazier -Foster... Frazier-Daniels... Frazier-Zyglwicz.. Frazier-Ellis... Frazier-Quarry... Then go to Foreman... Foreman-Frazier.... Foreman-Roman.... Foreman had a 12-pound pull on Norton, who was skinny when he first came up... That certainly helped George overpower the head first swinger.

No intelligent man can sit there with a straight face and tell us that smallness is an advantage in Heavyweight Boxing.

That...or he merely disagrees with you.

[Ambling Alp II]

Also, as I pointed out earlier in the 90s the top guys generally didn't face each other which makes it hard to know how good they were. If they had actually faced one another we would have a better idea of their strengths and weaknesses. Bowe avoided all the divisions big punchers for instance. If he had faced someone like Tyson or Lewis we would have a better idea of how durable he is.

Your argument is that in the 90s the top guys generally didn't face each other which makes it hard to know how good they were. If they had actually faced one another we would have a better idea of their strengths and weaknesses. Wow. I mean wow.

How about take out the part about the 1990s and put in the 2000s or 2010s? The top guys almost never fight each other. There are always tons of guys with undefeated records or one loss guys who have beaten nobody.
There are tons of fights in the last 15 years that never happened that should have.

Yes we missed out on some great fights in the 1990s. Would have loved to see Bowe-Tyson, Bowe-Lewis, and Lewis against Holyfield and Tyson earlier. However look at what we did have. Bowe and Holyfield fought three times. You seriously can't come to any conclusions how good they were from these fights?

Mercer-Lewis and Mercer-Holyfield were great fights. We had Ruddock-Tyson twice. These weren't even title fights. Top contenders still actually fought each back then. That virtually never happens anymore.

You also had Foreman-Holyfield and Tyson-Holyfield. among others.

To say that we don't have enough data on the fighters from the 1990s when you are comparing them to the fighters since 2000 is beyond ridiculous.

[Cojimar 1946]

Bowe beating Holyfield doesn't necessarily tell us how he deals with fighters who are stylistically different from Holyfield. For example, take the Golota fights where Bowe took a tremendous beating before Golota fouled out. It seems kind of bizarre that a guy who beat Holyfield twice including a win by devastating kayo and only barely lost the second fight by controversial decision would suddenly be unable to do anything against Golota. Thus you can't take the Holyfield fights and assume that Bowe beats everyone worse than Holyfield and only loses to guys at Holyfield's level and above. Golota obviously had a much less impressive career than Holyfield but that didn't help Bowe in either of their fights.

If Bowe had retired in 1995 and had not faced Golota you guys would no doubt ridicule anyone who suggested Golota could beat him. I have no doubt that many people today are still perplexed as to why Bowe did so poorly against Golota but we can't just pretend the fights didn't happen because they don't fit our preconceived notions of what should have happened.

[oogiebe]

Bowe beating Holyfield doesn't necessarily tell us how he deals with fighters who are stylistically different from Holyfield. For example, take the Golota fights where Bowe took a tremendous beating before Golota fouled out. It seems kind of bizarre that a guy who beat Holyfield twice including a win by devastating kayo and only barely lost the second fight by controversial decision would suddenly be unable to do anything against Golota. Thus you can't take the Holyfield fights and assume that Bowe beats everyone worse than Holyfield and only loses to guys at Holyfield's level and above. Golota obviously had a much less impressive career than Holyfield but that didn't help Bowe in either of their fights.

If Bowe had retired in 1995 and had not faced Golota you guys would no doubt ridicule anyone who suggested Golota could beat him. I have no doubt that many people today are still perplexed as to why Bowe did so poorly against Golota but we can't just pretend the fights didn't happen because they don't fit our preconceived notions of what should have happened.

Boring to have to say this again, but Styles Make Fights.

[Ambling Alp II]

Styles sometimes influence fights, they don't make them. The better guys usually wins.

Holyfield wasn't perfect, but he was as a complete of a heavyweight as there has been in the last 35 years. We ought to have some idea how good Bowe was after fighting him three times.

I thought I might be remembering the Bowe-Golota fights wrong. I looked it up on database and I was right. Bowe did win both times. Funny how often that doesn't get mentioned.

I remember Golota landing several punches below the belt. This was a huge factor in Golota's effectiveness (or Bowe ineffectiveness) in this fight. Somehow that never gets mentioned anymore either.

Bowe beat plenty of guys with pretty win loss records which is how fighters are evaluated these days. Larry Donald, Herbie Hide, and Gonzalez were all undefeated until they fought Bowe. Seldon, Coetzer, Tubbs all had pretty records as well.

Yet he gets ripped for not fighting anyone but Holyfield (and three times at that.)

[oogiebe]

Styles sometimes influence fights, they don't make them. The better guys usually wins.

Holyfield wasn't perfect, but he was as a complete of a heavyweight as there has been in the last 35 years. We ought to have some idea how good Bowe was after fighting him three times.

I thought I might be remembering the Bowe-Golota fights wrong. I looked it up on database and I was right. Bowe did win both times. Funny how often that doesn't get mentioned.

I remember Golota landing several punches below the belt. This was a huge factor in Golota's effectiveness (or Bowe ineffectiveness) in this fight. Somehow that never gets mentioned anymore either.

Bowe beat plenty of guys with pretty win loss records which is how fighters are evaluated these days. Larry Donald, Herbie Hide, and Gonzalez were all undefeated until they fought Bowe. Seldon, Coetzer, Tubbs all had pretty records as well.

Yet he gets ripped for not fighting anyone but Holyfield (and three times at that.)

I beg to differ...respectfully...on the style part. Bowe "winning" against Golota by foul doesn't push Bowe's narrative any further. He got the crap kicked out of him, not to mention his Father's Day put in peril. But he was still getting clobbered. I hate these multi-era comparisons, but I just can't stop getting involved!!!

[Flump]

One problem one encounters when trying to analyze the abilities of Lewis's and Joshua's opponents is that in both eras top fighters largely failed to fight each other. It's hard to tell how good Tua, Ruddock, Tucker, Whyte are given that they didn't fight most of their contemporaries.

Ruddock is best known for his losses to Mike Tyson but as best I can tell he never beat anyone ranked in the top 10 in his entire career. Tucker beat two guys who would generally be considered top-10 but again we would have a better sense of how good he is if he had actually faced more top guys.

He beat Weaver in an upset, Dokes when he was consensus top 5 and Bonecrusher Smith who was still hanging around the top 10. Ruddock was a good fighter who would probably have been better had he not fallen in love with his 'smash'

[oogiebe]

One problem one encounters when trying to analyze the abilities of Lewis's and Joshua's opponents is that in both eras top fighters largely failed to fight each other. It's hard to tell how good Tua, Ruddock, Tucker, Whyte are given that they didn't fight most of their contemporaries.

Ruddock is best known for his losses to Mike Tyson but as best I can tell he never beat anyone ranked in the top 10 in his entire career. Tucker beat two guys who would generally be considered top-10 but again we would have a better sense of how good he is if he had actually faced more top guys.

He beat Weaver in an upset, Dokes when he was consensus top 5 and Bonecrusher Smith who was still hanging around the top 10. Ruddock was a good fighter who would probably have been better had he not fallen in love with his 'smash'

Ruddock depended too much on his "hybrid-hook." I like him...but I don't remember him looking like a boxer and not a one-handed slugger. IMO.

[Cojimar 1946]

As best I can tell the guys Bowe was fighting were not ranked in the top 10. The only top 10 guys he faced were Holyfield, Tubbs, and possibly Golota although Golota is arguable.
Here are some 90s matchups that didn't happen
Holyfield-Tua
Holyfield-Tubbs
Holyfield-Witherspoon
Holyfield-Tucker
Holyfield-Bruno
Holyfield-Ruddock
Holyfield-McCall
Holyfield-Sanders
Holyfield-Lewis (primes)
Bowe-Tucker
Bowe-Witherspoon
Bowe-Ruddock
Bowe-Tyson
Bowe-Lewis
Bowe-Sanders
Bowe-Moorer
Moorer vs Witherspoon
Moorer vs Tubbs
Moorer vs Tucker
Moorer vs Sanders
Moorer vs Tyson
etc, etc......
As you can see there were tons and tons of fights that failed to materialize.

[Cojimar 1946]

Also, I don't buy the low blows excuse for Bowe not performing better in the Golota fights. Low blows come with the territory in boxing. Bowe wasn't above fouling himself.

[oogiebe]

As best I can tell the guys Bowe was fighting were not ranked in the top 10. The only top 10 guys he faced were Holyfield, Tubbs, and possibly Golota although Golota is arguable.
Here are some 90s matchups that didn't happen
Holyfield-Tua
Holyfield-Tubbs
Holyfield-Witherspoon
Holyfield-Tucker
Holyfield-Bruno
Holyfield-Ruddock
Holyfield-McCall
Holyfield-Sanders
Holyfield-Lewis (primes)
Bowe-Tucker
Bowe-Witherspoon
Bowe-Ruddock
Bowe-Tyson
Bowe-Lewis
Bowe-Sanders
Bowe-Moorer
Moorer vs Witherspoon
Moorer vs Tubbs
Moorer vs Tucker
Moorer vs Sanders
Moorer vs Tyson
etc, etc......
As you can see there were tons and tons of fights that failed to materialize.

Most of the blame goes to sanctioning bodies and promoters who "OWN" fighters. I just believe that all fighters want to fight the best. The business of boxing won't allow that anymore, it seems. Alas...at least in the 70's we had Ali, Frazier, Norton, and Foreman. Things change. The fans have no control.

[oogiebe]

Also, I don't buy the low blows excuse for Bowe not performing better in the Golota fights. Low blows come with the territory in boxing. Bowe wasn't above fouling himself.

Bowe got his ass kicked! (and his package punched), but the low-blows were his best friend those evenings.

[Kalan]

Lennox Lewis was generally willing to fight ALL the top Heavyweights of the 90's.... They didn't want to fight Lewis... Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe were all his contemporaries and they all ducked Lewis for over 10 years....

When the careers of Tyson and Holyfield were winding down they were more willing to take losses -- and went for the Lewis fight because of the money NOT because they thought they would win... The judges were rigged in the 1st Lewis-Holyfield fight and Tyson didn't stand a chance in Hell of beating Lewis... 3-0 Lewis vs Tyson, Holyfield, and Bowe.

But Lewis's only offer to fight a Klitschko Bro came on less than 2-weeks' notice... Vitali was winning on ALL SCORECARDS when the fight was stopped on foul caused cuts... If fouls are involved you go to the scorecards -- which didn't happen....Here's rock solid proof Vitali was the victim of a flicking thumb strike (forearm flicked and wrist rotated like your swatting a fly), an illegal head grab, headwork to worsen the cut...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q .... Immediately followed by a holding-n-hitting palm rake... 5 fouls in a few seconds.

[Cojimar 1946]

It's possible that for whatever reason Bowe had some weaknesses that Golota was able to capitalize on whereas Holyfield couldn't though I myself am not sure what they would be. Perhaps the fact that Golota was the same size as Bowe was a factor in his success. In any case, as I said I think the better eras argument doesn't work especially well for Lewis given that he largely failed to face the best of his era.

Bowe isn't really relevant to my argument because he and Lewis didn't fight as pros anyway. As regards to Ruddock, his wins over Weaver, and Dokes occured when these men were well past their prime. Had he faced prime versions of these guys we would have some idea of his abilities but I don't see how beating them at that stage is especially helpful in determining his ability.

Smith may still have been in his prime but he was extremely inconsistant and lost to guys like Marvis Frazier and Adilson Rodriguez prior to fighting Ruddock. Given his inconsistency it's difficult to say how good a win this is.

[Ambling Alp II]

As best I can tell the guys Bowe was fighting were not ranked in the top 10. The only top 10 guys he faced were Holyfield, Tubbs, and possibly Golota although Golota is arguable.
Here are some 90s matchups that didn't happen
Holyfield-Tua
Holyfield-Tubbs
Holyfield-Witherspoon
Holyfield-Tucker
Holyfield-Bruno
Holyfield-Ruddock
Holyfield-McCall
Holyfield-Sanders
Holyfield-Lewis (primes)
Bowe-Tucker
Bowe-Witherspoon
Bowe-Ruddock
Bowe-Tyson
Bowe-Lewis
Bowe-Sanders
Bowe-Moorer
Moorer vs Witherspoon
Moorer vs Tubbs
Moorer vs Tucker
Moorer vs Sanders
Moorer vs Tyson
etc, etc......
As you can see there were tons and tons of fights that failed to materialize.

Well of course there are many fights that didn't materialize. not everyone can fight everyone. Some these fights had a very small window of time to have happened anyway. Witherspoon, Tucker, and Tubbs were fading by this time and Sanders was not one of the top guys.

However, at least there were several fights that did materialize. In the last 15 years, top guys almost never fight each other.
You could make a list a mile long of two top 10 fighters in this period who never fought.

Love how you cherry pcik losses from the fighters of the 1990s. These guys were actually fighting decent competion and obviously someone has to lose. You didn't have a top 10 of undefeated guys who have not fought anyone like you do now.
You can't come to any conclusion how good Razor Ruddock was?

Look at the top 10 now. almost no one has fought more than 1 other of the top 10. Some have fought none.
None of these guys have really proved themselves.
That isn't my opinion. That is a fact.

[Cojimar 1946]

I don't think there is any excuse for so many 90s matchups not happening. The fans should have demanded the fights occur by boycotting all the mismatches they were given. There is no excuse for Bowe, Moorer, McCall, etc not facing better opponents. Think of how much better the 90s would have been if all the fights I had listed had actually taken place.

[Ambling Alp II]

Well of course it would have been better if every really good/great fighter fought each other. That never happens. Name another era and I will list several fights that should have happened.

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that sometimes a certain fighter simply isn't available. Fighter A may want to fight Fighter B but Fighter B already has signed up to fight Fighter C. After Fight B fights fighter C, fighter A has signed to fight fighter D and so on.

What really cracks me up is that you ignore the obvious fact that the best fighters almost never fight each anymore. Yet you complain that the fighters from the 1990s only did it sometimes. You are picking an obvious weakness from the 2000s, ignoring it, and trying to use that on another era that isn't nearly that weak in that area.

[Ambling Alp II]

It's possible that for whatever reason Bowe had some weaknesses that Golota was able to capitalize on whereas Holyfield couldn't though I myself am not sure what they would be. Perhaps the fact that Golota was the same size as Bowe was a factor in his success. In any case, as I said I think the better eras argument doesn't work especially well for Lewis given that he largely failed to face the best of his era.

Bowe isn't really relevant to my argument because he and Lewis didn't fight as pros anyway. As regards to Ruddock, his wins over Weaver, and Dokes occured when these men were well past their prime. Had he faced prime versions of these guys we would have some idea of his abilities but I don't see how beating them at that stage is especially helpful in determining his ability.

Smith may still have been in his prime but he was extremely inconsistant and lost to guys like Marvis Frazier and Adilson Rodriguez prior to fighting Ruddock. Given his inconsistency it's difficult to say how good a win this is.

Have you actually seen the Golota-Bowe fights and Holyfield-Bowe fights?
Golota couldn't do anything better than Holyfield. Holyfield was much faster, smarter, had as much power, a better chin, and had much better boxing skills. He couldn't do anything to Bowe that Holyfield couldn't.
Smith fought a ton of very good/great fighters. He wasn't the most consistent guy, but you ought to have a pretty good idea how good he was.

You act like guys like Joshua ,Wilder, Fury have answered all the question against tough opponents when they are pretty much untested. (Notice none fought each other.)
Then you act like you have no idea how good Lewis, Bowe, Ruddock, and Smith are.

Forget about weights, title defenses and meaningless win/loss records. You need to actually start watching fights. Ever heard of youtube?

[Kalan]

Wlad would've been mowed down like dry grass against by prime Tyson, Holyfield, or even Bowe.

How many people rank Buster Douglas ahead of Wladimir Klitschko???

Tyson refused to fight the Klitschko's when he was 36 and 37 years old.... Klitschko didn't refuse to fight Joshua when he was 41... Tyson agreed to fight Danny Williams when he was 37 and was knocked out... Vitali Klitschko knocked Williams out with supreme ease in Williams' next fight....

Evander Holyfield got his ass boxed to death by Larry Donald... Vitali Klitschko is the ONLY fighter to KO Larry Donald... Holyfield was floored and beaten by John Ruiz... David Tua made a 17 second ice job out of John Ruiz... Chris Byrd beat a prime David Tua with ease... Wladimir Klitschko battered a prime Chris Byrd half to death... Byrd was super easy for Wlad.

Bowe took a couple bad beatings from Andrew Golota.... Golota was stopped by Ray Austin in 1 round.... Wladimir Klitschko knocked Ray Austin out in 2 rounds... an ice job...

Let's talk about fights that happened instead of the mythological... "Tyson woulda murdered dis bum."

So after all your praise for Douglas when focused, you now trash him. I would take him over the chinny one at his best. Tyson also easily in a non clinchfest. You understand the concept of primes? Tyson was washed up well before his mid-late 30s. Everyone that Joshua beats isnt great or even good. He beat a chinny washed up clutcher, who probably gets kod as much as a club fighter if he doesnt hang on for dear life. I dont recall seeing Tyson, Holyfield, or Bowe being counted out repeatedly against nondescript fighters in their primes.

Your arguments don't fly... Douglas got knocked out after his Boxing skills matured and was flattened more often than Wladimir... Wlad reigned for over 10 years as Heavyweight Champion without getting knocked out or knocked down, after he was with Emanual Steward for a couple of years ironing out all of his fistic flaws, which were numerous... Anybody who rates Douglas over the best Klitschko is so biased and ridiculous they're not going to listen to a damned thing.

Wladimir wasn't a clutch and run specialist like Ali... Ali grabbed 20 times in the 1st round of the Foreman fight along with wrestling, neck leaning, and the whole bit... That's an all time record for a Heavyweight Title Fight.. Wladimir didn't grab, Chambers, Austin, Brock, Wach, Thompson, Haye, Povetkin, Ibragimov as much as Ali grabbed Chuvalo, Frazier, Foreman, Evangelista, Mac Foster, Lewis, Spinks, Norton, Shavers and other guys he fought.

Tyson got knocked out 5 times which is more than Wladimir with far fewer Title Fights... Mike didn't reverse ANY of those losses... Holyfield was stopped by a former Middleweight Champion and knocked down by super crude John Ruiz, who was easily outboxed by former Middleweight Champion Roy Jones... Larry Donald also boxed the shit out of Holyfield.

But let's go prime for prime... Prime Tua crushes prime Ruiz... Prime Byrd out-boxes prime Tua... prime Byrd gets the stuffings kicked out of him by a Wladimir Klitschko who still had a dozen fistic flaws according to Steward... Wladimir beat Byrd and Mercer with sheer size, strength, and athleticism - not boxing mastery which he didn't have til his early 30's.

[Cojimar 1946]

I have seen the first two Bowe-Holyfield fights and the first Golota-Bowe fight. I saw part of the rematch but not the whole fight. I am not sure what Golota did better than Holyfield (possibly better defensively). But, for whatever reason he was much more effective than Holyfield was at least against Bowe. Obviously, Holyfield was overall the better fighter.

[oogiebe]

I have seen the first two Bowe-Holyfield fights and the first Golota-Bowe fight. I saw part of the rematch but not the whole fight. I am not sure what Golota did better than Holyfield (possibly better defensively). But, for whatever reason he was much more effective than Holyfield was at least against Bowe. Obviously, Holyfield was overall the better fighter.

Golata a big strong fighter; good counter puncher; He certainly pulverized Bowe better than Holyfield, but doesn't make him better than Holyfield.

[MrGuy]

How many people rank Buster Douglas ahead of Wladimir Klitschko???

Tyson refused to fight the Klitschko's when he was 36 and 37 years old.... Klitschko didn't refuse to fight Joshua when he was 41... Tyson agreed to fight Danny Williams when he was 37 and was knocked out... Vitali Klitschko knocked Williams out with supreme ease in Williams' next fight....

Evander Holyfield got his ass boxed to death by Larry Donald... Vitali Klitschko is the ONLY fighter to KO Larry Donald... Holyfield was floored and beaten by John Ruiz... David Tua made a 17 second ice job out of John Ruiz... Chris Byrd beat a prime David Tua with ease... Wladimir Klitschko battered a prime Chris Byrd half to death... Byrd was super easy for Wlad.

Bowe took a couple bad beatings from Andrew Golota.... Golota was stopped by Ray Austin in 1 round.... Wladimir Klitschko knocked Ray Austin out in 2 rounds... an ice job...

Let's talk about fights that happened instead of the mythological... "Tyson woulda murdered dis bum."

So after all your praise for Douglas when focused, you now trash him. I would take him over the chinny one at his best. Tyson also easily in a non clinchfest. You understand the concept of primes? Tyson was washed up well before his mid-late 30s. Everyone that Joshua beats isnt great or even good. He beat a chinny washed up clutcher, who probably gets kod as much as a club fighter if he doesnt hang on for dear life. I dont recall seeing Tyson, Holyfield, or Bowe being counted out repeatedly against nondescript fighters in their primes.

Your arguments don't fly... Douglas got knocked out after his Boxing skills matured and was flattened more often than Wladimir... Wlad reigned for over 10 years as Heavyweight Champion without getting knocked out or knocked down, after he was with Emanual Steward for a couple of years ironing out all of his fistic flaws, which were numerous... Anybody who rates Douglas over the best Klitschko is so biased and ridiculous they're not going to listen to a damned thing.

Wladimir wasn't a clutch and run specialist like Ali... Ali grabbed 20 times in the 1st round of the Foreman fight along with wrestling, neck leaning, and the whole bit... That's an all time record for a Heavyweight Title Fight.. Wladimir didn't grab, Chambers, Austin, Brock, Wach, Thompson, Haye, Povetkin, Ibragimov as much as Ali grabbed Chuvalo, Frazier, Foreman, Evangelista, Mac Foster, Lewis, Spinks, Norton, Shavers and other guys he fought.

Tyson got knocked out 5 times which is more than Wladimir with far fewer Title Fights... Mike didn't reverse ANY of those losses... Holyfield was stopped by a former Middleweight Champion and knocked down by super crude John Ruiz, who was easily outboxed by former Middleweight Champion Roy Jones... Larry Donald also boxed the poo out of Holyfield.

But let's go prime for prime... Prime Tua crushes prime Ruiz... Prime Byrd out-boxes prime Tua... prime Byrd gets the stuffings kicked out of him by a Wladimir Klitschko who still had a dozen fistic flaws according to Steward... Wladimir beat Byrd and Mercer with sheer size, strength, and athleticism - not boxing mastery which he didn't have til his early 30's.

Wlad clutched and held on for his life for a decade. If he didn't the guy wouldve spent his entire career on his back. Young prime Ali didnt clinch much. Older Ali did a good bit more. Wlad did this all day during his alleged prime.. Dont even compare Tysons chin to Wlads. Tyson got torpedoed once before he started to lose it. Then he had to be hammered round after round. Klinchko was breathed on and collapsed against 3 nondescript fighters. Tyson was ko'd 3 times after the 15th year of his career. He had a chin. Klinchko didnt. Mercer was done for. Give up.