SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[Kalan]

Also I don't see anything to suggest Lewis was past his prime against Rahman. He looked fine in his previous fight and following fights. I would say Lewis's peak was 1995-2002 (Morrison fight to the Tyson fight). He was world-class as far back as 1991 but seems to have improved under Stewart. The Klitschko fight appears to be the first fight where you could argue he was slipping.

You bet!! ..... Vitali fought Lewis on less than 2 weeks notice. Lewis had been preparing for a Heavyweight Championship Fight for months... Vitali was winning the fight on all scorecards after 6 rounds, when the fight was stopped on cuts that were caused by 5 deliberate fouls in a row... But even if fouls are accidental you still go to the scorecards...

Here's a video that shows the 5 fouls in slow motion.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

1.. The 1st foul was a thumb strike... A legal straight right is thrown straight from the shoulder.. That's so you can get full body power behind it.. A thumb strike is swatted like you swat a fly. As the forearm swats down, the thumb catches the corner of the eyelid, the wrist in rotated with a twist as the edge of the gloves passes the eye and nicks the cut open.

2.. The 2nd foul is the illegal head grab.. You cannot physically grab hold of your opponent's head.. That's a foul.

3.. The 3rd foul is the illegal head work.. Lewis rubbed and twisted his head and hair into the cut.

4.. Holding-and-hitting.. You cannot punch your opponent while holding him with the other hand.

5.. Palm rake.. You can only strike with the end of the fist... Not with the back, edge, or palm of the glove. Lewis even checks his glove to see it there's blood on it... He knew the referee would call no fouls.... Same referee as Guerrero-Berto where more than 100 fouls were committed and Lou Moret didn't call one... Kellerman referred to Lennox Lewis's penchant for holding and hitting by shouting "SHADES OF LENNOX LEWIS!!!" as Guerrero was holding and hitting with impunity.

If a foul blow causes or contributes to a cut you go to the scorecards.... Vitali wins Unanimous Technical Decision 6.

[gilgamesh]

You're still on that? Lennox cut and TKO'd him WITH PUNCHES...get over it.

[Kalan]

Look at the video you lying piece.... FIVE FOULS... And the slo-mo video catches them all perfectly...

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...

[gilgamesh]

Look at the video you lying piece.... FIVE FOULS... And the slo-mo video catches them all perfectly...

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...

I saw those videos the 1st time you made this assertion. They weren't fouls.

If he got away with something I'd call it "Veteran Ring Savvy"

The cut was caused by a punch. Case closed.

[Kalan]

You're fulla crap.... A thumb strike is NOT a legal punch.... Head grabs and illegal head work are fouls.

And having the referee in your pocket isn't veteran savvy.... It's corruption

You admit Lewis "got away" with his behavior... I guess you would call that breaking the rules in a slick manner and having the referee in you pocket... It wasn't that slick... And if you get away with cheating you still deserved to lose.

[gilgamesh]

You're fulla crap.... A thumb strike is NOT a legal punch.... Head grabs and illegal head work are fouls.

And having the referee in your pocket isn't veteran savvy.... It's corruption

Whatever douche

[Kalan]

FO stupid

[gilgamesh]

You realize pretty much nobody on this forum takes you seriously right?

You're kinda the bar by which stupidity is measured.

"Well this guy don't really know what he's talking about, but at least he's not Kalan" kinda thing.

I can get along with most every member of this forum in some way or form...just not you. I don't respect you or take you seriously on any level. You respond to LITERALLY EVERYTHING with hostility. Even when people agree with you, you find the minor quibbles in their phrasing to argue with. You're an absolute jackass.

[Kalan]

Your trolling remarks mean nothing because I know what a brainless fool you are... I consider the source

You know absolutely ZERO about the sport of Boxing and can't comprehend your own bias and stupidity

[gilgamesh]

Go ahead, and make a poll. "Who knows more about Boxing gilgamesh or Kalan?" and watch the results...I dare you

[Kalan]

Let's give people an intelligence test before we do that....

You don't go to Alabama and take a poll of who people think was a great president... John F Kennedy or Dubya.

[MrGuy]

Also I don't see anything to suggest Lewis was past his prime against Rahman. He looked fine in his previous fight and following fights. I would say Lewis's peak was 1995-2002 (Morrison fight to the Tyson fight). He was world-class as far back as 1991 but seems to have improved under Stewart. The Klitschko fight appears to be the first fight where you could argue he was slipping.

You bet!! ..... Vitali fought Lewis on less than 2 weeks notice. Lewis had been preparing for a Heavyweight Championship Fight for months... Vitali was winning the fight on all scorecards after 6 rounds, when the fight was stopped on cuts that were caused by 5 deliberate fouls in a row... But even if fouls are accidental you still go to the scorecards...

Here's a video that shows the 5 fouls in slow motion.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

1.. The 1st foul was a thumb strike... A legal straight right is thrown straight from the shoulder.. That's so you can get full body power behind it.. A thumb strike is swatted like you swat a fly. As the forearm swats down, the thumb catches the corner of the eyelid, the wrist in rotated with a twist as the edge of the gloves passes the eye and nicks the cut open.

2.. The 2nd foul is the illegal head grab.. You cannot physically grab hold of your opponent's head.. That's a foul.

3.. The 3rd foul is the illegal head work.. Lewis rubbed and twisted his head and hair into the cut.

4.. Holding-and-hitting.. You cannot punch your opponent while holding him with the other hand.

5.. Palm rake.. You can only strike with the end of the fist... Not with the back, edge, or palm of the glove. Lewis even checks his glove to see it there's blood on it... He knew the referee would call no fouls.... Same referee as Guerrero-Berto where more than 100 fouls were committed and Lou Moret didn't call one... Kellerman referred to Lennox Lewis's penchant for holding and hitting by shouting "SHADES OF LENNOX LEWIS!!!" as Guerrero was holding and hitting with impunity.

If a foul blow causes or contributes to a cut you go to the scorecards.... Vitali wins Unanimous Technical Decision 6.

Congrats your vid proved it opened from a straight right.

[oogiebe]

[/quote]
No fighter is perfect. He was the greatest. Wlad wasn't and Lomanchenko wont be. You do realize the grabbing, laying on the ropes broken jaw guy was out his prime don't you? Put the 90s top guys in Wlads era and they dominate forever like he did. Even if you exclude his gaping eye would Vitali was,well on his way to running out of gas against a fat old version of Lewis.
[/quote]

Well said on all points. Tough to argue!

[Kalan]

Congrats your vid proved it opened from a straight right.

What I proved is you're blind as a bat.... If that right hand was straight....so were Liberace and Rock Hudson.

Lewis's right hand thumb strike was clearly NOT thrown from the shoulder... It was swatted from the elbow and his wrist rotated as the thumb caught the corner of the eye as the thumb passed the left side of Vitali's head.... Lewis then swiped his thumb the other direction to do more damage.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

[oogiebe]

Congrats your vid proved it opened from a straight right.

What I proved is you're blind as a bat.... If that right hand was straight....so were Liberace and Rock Hudson.

Lewis's right hand thumb strike was clearly NOT thrown from the shoulder... It was swatted from the elbow and his wrist rotated as the thumb caught the corner of the eye as the thumb passed the left side of Vitali's head.... Lewis then swiped his thumb the other direction to do more damage.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

Kalan, I have to say, that you are the most consistent guy I've ever met. No knock. I may disagree, but you are a rock.

[Kalan]

I'm a rock on the TRUTH.... NOT on fables... That's why I defended Liston and condemned Ali for DEFYING the rules.

Well how about this Oogie???? ..... How about YOU watch this slow motion video and HONESTLY tell me what you see....

Is that possible for you??? Let me know.

[oogiebe]

Well how about this???? ..... How about YOU watch the slow motion video and HONESTLY tell me what you see....

Is that possible for you??? Let me know.

Rut roh...ok...

[oogiebe]

I have to be honest, like it or not. Looks like the seam from the thumb slashes across Vitali's eye. However; I do think that Lewis was beginning to take the fight to Klitchko. Can't ever say what would've happened. BUt yes...that vid shows to me a thumb over the eye and not in.

[Kalan]

Right... Lewis was going for the eyelid for all he was worth... The thumb made hard contact with the eyelid... You don't have to gouge somebody's eye (with modern gloves you can't) for it to be a thumb strike... You go for the eyelid and rotate the glove as the edge of the thumb makes contact... That was a classic thumb strike..

What Lewis and Vitali WOULD have done in subsequent rounds is NOT an issue.... The fight was STOPPED on cuts that were caused by 5 consecutive fouls... You go to the scorecards and Vitali was WINNING ON ALL SCORECARDS!!!!

[oogiebe]

Right... Lewis was going for the eyelid for all he was worth... The thumb made hard contact with the eyelid... You don't have to gouge somebody's eye (with modern gloves you can't) for it to be a thumb strike... You go for the eyelid and rotate the glove as the edge of the thumb makes contact... That was a classic thumb strike..

What Lewis and Vitali WOULD have done in subsequent rounds is NOT an issue.... The fight was STOPPED on cuts that were caused by 5 consecutive fouls... You go to the scorecards and Vitali was WINNING ON ALL SCORECARDS!!!!

Ok...just stop yelling...

[gilgamesh]

Right... Lewis was going for the eyelid for all he was worth... The thumb made hard contact with the eyelid... You don't have to gouge somebody's eye (with modern gloves you can't) for it to be a thumb strike... You go for the eyelid and rotate the glove as the edge of the thumb makes contact... That was a classic thumb strike..

What Lewis and Vitali WOULD have done in subsequent rounds is NOT an issue.... The fight was STOPPED on cuts that were caused by 5 consecutive fouls... You go to the scorecards and Vitali was WINNING ON ALL SCORECARDS!!!!

If the Thumb did in fact cause the cut. I'd call it veteran ring savvy.

"It ain't cheating if the ref don't see"

[oogiebe]

LMFAO!!! @Gil!!

[Kalan]

Gilgamesh.... Referees are frequently bought off... If you committed fouls you don't DESERVE to win regardless.

You know how frustrating it is when the truth doesn't penetrate... I went on with Ali-Liston 2 for days before getting agreement from most that YES...Ali violated the rules and Liston didn't... It's like pulling teeth to show folks the truth.

It's like politics.... I engage a lot in political discourse as well.... People will not listen to the truth... They've been indoctrinated since birth with an ideology... They resist forever before they'll ever look at cold stone facts.

[gilgamesh]

Gilgamesh.... Referees are frequently bought off... If you committed fouls you don't DESERVE to win regardless.

You know how frustrating it is when the truth doesn't penetrate... I went on with Ali-Liston 2 for days before getting agreement from most that YES...Ali violated the rules and Liston didn't... It's like pulling teeth to show folks the truth.

It's like politics.... I engage a lot in political discourse as well.... People will not listen to the truth... They've been indoctrinated since birth with an ideology... They resist forever before they'll ever look at cold stone facts.

What rules did Ali violate? Liston took a dive, but I didn't see any rule violation on Ali's part.

The fouls you accuse Lennox of is just the kinda shit that happens in the heat of battle. Vitali himself has never alleged foul play from Lennox's end so why should I listen to some guy on the internet making excuses for him that the man himself didn't make?

Vitali did well in the fight. In many ways it made his career as he was a star after that.

Fact is Lennox at the tail end of his career, in the final fight of his career was still better than Vitali in the prime of his career...and that's always gonna be the way it is. Whether you like it or not.

And for the record. I like Vitali...if the situation had been reversed, and Lennox had won 4 rounds out of 6, but got cut something terrible and had to be stopped. My comment would be exactly the same. Just flip flop the names.

[Kalan]

Gilgamesh.... Referees are frequently bought off... If you committed fouls you don't DESERVE to win regardless.

You know how frustrating it is when the truth doesn't penetrate... I went on with Ali-Liston 2 for days before getting agreement from most that YES...Ali violated the rules and Liston didn't... It's like pulling teeth to show folks the truth.

It's like politics.... I engage a lot in political discourse as well.... People will not listen to the truth... They've been indoctrinated since birth with an ideology... They resist forever before they'll ever look at cold stone facts.

What rules did Ali violate? Liston took a dive, but I didn't see any rule violation on Ali's part.

The fouls you accuse Lennox of is just the kinda poo that happens in the heat of battle. Vitali himself has never alleged foul play from Lennox's end so why should I listen to some guy on the internet making excuses for him that the man himself didn't make?

Vitali did well in the fight. In many ways it made his career as he was a star after that.

Fact is Lennox at the tail end of his career, in the final fight of his career was still better than Vitali in the prime of his career...and that's always gonna be the way it is. Whether you like it or not.

And for the record. I like Vitali...if the situation had been reversed, and Lennox had won 4 rounds out of 6, but got cut something terrible and had to be stopped. My comment would be exactly the same. Just flip flop the names.

WHAT RULES DID ALI VIOLATE???? .... THE NEUTRAL CORNER RULE!!!!! WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN UNDER A ROCK????

Ali defied Walcott's orders to go to a neutral corner and according to the rules the count was supposed to be suspended... Liston got up when Ali was at a safe distance (NOT in a neutral corner where he was directed to be)... Liston had gotten NO count because Walcott was busy trying to get Ali to a neutral corner... When Liston got to his feet, Walcott, Liston, and Ali ALL thought the fight was still on and action resumed... Everybody who knows the facts agrees that Liston got screwed because the count WASN'T suspended according to the neutral corner rule.

A clean boxer doesn't foul in the the heat of battle... A dirty fighter with a corrupt refee fouls as much as he can... Vitali DOES say Lewis caused the cuts with fouls... With his head in particular... In the video you see Lewis grinding his head into the cut to worsen it... Vitali also noted Lewis was warned for palming and elbowing Vitali which worsened the cut.

You would not be for Vitali if the situation was reversed... You'd be screaming that Lewis was winning and he was robbed if his cuts were caused by foul blows... Vitali was NOT at his best because he was suffering numerous problems with his badly injured legs at that time... Vitali was much better after he took 4 years off and came back at 37... Lewis got better with age and he was at his best... VK came back after 4 years of rehabbing his legs and destroyed Sam Peter 30-1... He was the first man to ever stop Peter and he pretty much wrecked him... He said that was his best fight.