Norton vs Lyle in October 1979

[Tuan_Jim]

Two fighters shot. One throws bombs. You tell me.

Where were Lyle's bombs versus LeDoux and the glass chinned Lynn Ball? Norton throws bombs too, and could still fight in 79. A guy who gets laid out clean by Lynn Ball is not knocking out Ken Norton.

My friend, Ken Norton never threw bombs. I saw a great deal of his fights. He was a boxer/puncher. I saw both those guys since early 70's. Lyle would've taken Norton down in 1979. As I said earlier, in the early 70's Norton's skill would've won Lyle over.

If Lyle was capable of taking Ken Norton down in 79 he should certainly have been able to take down Scott LeDoux and Lynn Ball--instead he got beaten up by both of them, and was down in both fights early. Norton had more left in 79, was a much better boxer and would be more likely to wipe out what was left of Lyle than Lyle put in some miraculous performance that empirically he was no longer capable of mustering.

[oogiebe]

Where were Lyle's bombs versus LeDoux and the glass chinned Lynn Ball? Norton throws bombs too, and could still fight in 79. A guy who gets laid out clean by Lynn Ball is not knocking out Ken Norton.

My friend, Ken Norton never threw bombs. I saw a great deal of his fights. He was a boxer/puncher. I saw both those guys since early 70's. Lyle would've taken Norton down in 1979. As I said earlier, in the early 70's Norton's skill would've won Lyle over.

If Lyle was capable of taking Ken Norton down in 79 he should certainly have been able to take down Scott LeDoux and Lynn Ball--instead he got beaten up by both of them, and was down in both fights early. Norton had more left in 79, was a much better boxer and would be more likely to wipe out what was left of Lyle than Lyle put in some miraculous performance that empirically he was no longer capable of mustering.

Norton drew LeDoux and was knocked down twice. Shavers bombed him out in 1 with 2 knockdowns. "Norton had more left" if that were true where did it go? LMFAO!!!! "wipe out" LMFAO!!!

[oogiebe]

And I absolutely LOVE Kenny Norton.

[Tuan_Jim]

to further my point, Norton had two fights in '79. A draw with LeDoux (Norton knocked down twice) and a ko loss to an old Shavers. So again, two shot fighters.

Norton bossed LeDoux for 7 rounds. Lyle couldn't outbox or handle the same LeDoux at all. Norton's performance was the better one--plus he also went on to survive a tough rumble with Cobb long after Lyle had expired.

You ignore Lyle getting laid out clean by frail journeyman Lynn Ball but point to Norton getting KOd by Earnie freaking Shavers--who in his next fight put prime Larry Holmes on the deck and had years of big punching left in him. Use your emergency record skimming skills to tell us what Lynn Ball did after he smoked Ron Lyle's corpse.

[oogiebe]

to further my point, Norton had two fights in '79. A draw with LeDoux (Norton knocked down twice) and a ko loss to an old Shavers. So again, two shot fighters.

Norton bossed LeDoux for 7 rounds. Lyle couldn't outbox or handle the same LeDoux at all. Norton's performance was the better one--plus he also went on to survive a tough rumble with Cobb long after Lyle had expired.

You ignore Lyle getting laid out clean by frail journeyman Lynn Ball but point to Norton getting KOd by Earnie freaking Shavers--who in his next fight put prime Larry Holmes on the deck and had years of big punching left in him. Use your emergency record skimming skills to tell us what Lynn Ball did after he smoked Ron Lyle's corpse.

Lyle takes out Norton. That is how I see it. IMHO. I'm sorry it bothers you so much.

[Tuan_Jim]

to further my point, Norton had two fights in '79. A draw with LeDoux (Norton knocked down twice) and a ko loss to an old Shavers. So again, two shot fighters.

Norton bossed LeDoux for 7 rounds. Lyle couldn't outbox or handle the same LeDoux at all. Norton's performance was the better one--plus he also went on to survive a tough rumble with Cobb long after Lyle had expired.

You ignore Lyle getting laid out clean by frail journeyman Lynn Ball but point to Norton getting KOd by Earnie freaking Shavers--who in his next fight put prime Larry Holmes on the deck and had years of big punching left in him. Use your emergency record skimming skills to tell us what Lynn Ball did after he smoked Ron Lyle's corpse.

Lyle takes out Norton. That is how I see it. IMHO. I'm sorry it bothers you so much.

From a guy who sees no difference between a loss to Lynn Ball and a loss to Earnie Shavers, how you see a fight means very little.

[oogiebe]

Norton bossed LeDoux for 7 rounds. Lyle couldn't outbox or handle the same LeDoux at all. Norton's performance was the better one--plus he also went on to survive a tough rumble with Cobb long after Lyle had expired.

You ignore Lyle getting laid out clean by frail journeyman Lynn Ball but point to Norton getting KOd by Earnie freaking Shavers--who in his next fight put prime Larry Holmes on the deck and had years of big punching left in him. Use your emergency record skimming skills to tell us what Lynn Ball did after he smoked Ron Lyle's corpse.

Lyle takes out Norton. That is how I see it. IMHO. I'm sorry it bothers you so much.

From a guy who sees no difference between a loss to Lynn Ball and a loss to Earnie Shavers, how you see a fight means very little.

If my opinion means so little, why spend all this time on trying to convince me, or for that matter give a shite?

[oogiebe]

You are very emotional.

[sweetviolenturge]

Again, gentlemen, remember that this hypothetical fight that we're discussing is one which was to take place in a very specific time period. We're not discussing a fight between the two at any other time or in their primes.
Norton would be a year away from beating the tough, durable "Tex" Cobb in a minor classic at the time while Lyle would be heading into an upset KO by 2 to the unheralded Lynn Ball.
Which doesn't necessarily prove anything as we know that boxing math is very unreliable but I believe that it's safe to say that Norton had more left in the tank than Lyle did in October of '79.

[Tuan_Jim]

Again, gentlemen, remember that this hypothetical fight that we're discussing is one which was to take place in a very specific time period. We're not discussing a fight between the two at any other time or in their primes.
Norton would be a year away from beating the tough, durable "Tex" Cobb in a minor classic at the time while Lyle would be heading into an upset KO by 2 to the unheralded Lynn Ball.
Which doesn't necessarily prove anything as we know that boxing math is very unreliable but I believe that it's safe to say that Norton had more left in the tank than Lyle did in October of '79.

Everyone except one dummy can see that Norton clearly and empirically had more left in the tank in 1979 than did Lyle. It's a shame the fight didn't happen. That result the Boxing Gods bestowed on Lynn Ball would have been Kenny's.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- T'is a lovely spring with my agaves sending up flower spikes to the heavens, the 30 footer being the lead set piece for our neighborhood of 500 yr old live oaks.

Just broke my extended fast with beer and tacos after a cross country walk thru our 40 acre park with nubile young things soon to be sporting about, so I'll leave puerile playground squabbles at school.

1979 was the end of a golden era for heavies. Both lyle and norton saw title aspirations dashed by the last remnants of farcical officiating of the Ali era. Lyle was still on a pretty decent run and mentally norton even more set back by the Holmes/King travesty, compounded by Lyle probably possessing the hardest punch in 1979, so lyle by ko. Subsequent losses after Oct 79 have no bearing on this fight with both being up for it.

[Tony1244]

to further my point, Norton had two fights in '79. A draw with LeDoux (Norton knocked down twice) and a ko loss to an old Shavers. So again, two shot fighters.

Norton bossed LeDoux for 7 rounds. Lyle couldn't outbox or handle the same LeDoux at all. Norton's performance was the better one--plus he also went on to survive a tough rumble with Cobb long after Lyle had expired.

You ignore Lyle getting laid out clean by frail journeyman Lynn Ball but point to Norton getting KOd by Earnie freaking Shavers--who in his next fight put prime Larry Holmes on the deck and had years of big punching left in him. Use your emergency record skimming skills to tell us what Lynn Ball did after he smoked Ron Lyle's corpse.

Lyle takes out Norton. That is how I see it. IMHO. I'm sorry it bothers you so much.

I disagree. I think Norton takes out Ron Lyle. But the disgaeement doesn't bother me one iota.

Getting knocked out by Lynn Ball is a hell of a lot worse than getting knocked out by Earnie Shavers.

Norton was handily beating LeDoux and I believe Kenny got thumbed.

[oogiebe]

Again, gentlemen, remember that this hypothetical fight that we're discussing is one which was to take place in a very specific time period. We're not discussing a fight between the two at any other time or in their primes.
Norton would be a year away from beating the tough, durable "Tex" Cobb in a minor classic at the time while Lyle would be heading into an upset KO by 2 to the unheralded Lynn Ball.
Which doesn't necessarily prove anything as we know that boxing math is very unreliable but I believe that it's safe to say that Norton had more left in the tank than Lyle did in October of '79.

Everyone except one dummy can see that Norton clearly and empirically had more left in the tank in 1979 than did Lyle. It's a shame the fight didn't happen. That result the Boxing Gods bestowed on Lynn Ball would have been Kenny's.

From one dummy to another. I guess we're not entitled to our own opinion. I feel sorry for you Jim.

[DrDuke]

I like Lyle so much I listed him as one of my 5 favorite fighters of All Time on another thread here. Norton did not make that list, but I would favor Norton over Lyle regardless of what year they fought.

Norton had quicker hands, a better defense, and somewhat better chin.

I love Lyle's story and his incredible fights with Foreman, Ali, and Shavers, but I see Norton as being in the same class with Frazier and apparently Ali, while Lyle was more of the Ellis, Quarry class, who he beat and lost to respectively.

A good evaluation overall, I agree, that Norton was a better boxer, than Lyle, but I'd say, that his chin was worse, than Lyle's one.

Thinking about it some more, Norton took a lot of Ali's shots for 49 rounds, but Ali hurt Lyle quite easily when he needed to.
What says you....

Well, Lyle was dealing better with Foreman's punches. Of course, they both had relatively good and relatively bad examples of their abilities to take a punch, but Lyle was better in that overall. As for Norton's fight vs Ali - Ken wasn't easy to Ali in general.

[Tuan_Jim]

Subsequent losses after Oct 79 have no bearing on this fight with both being up for it.

You think the problems Lynn Ball uncovered weren't there in Ron Lyle 30, 40 days earlier?

[Tony1244]

A good evaluation overall, I agree, that Norton was a better boxer, than Lyle, but I'd say, that his chin was worse, than Lyle's one.

Thinking about it some more, Norton took a lot of Ali's shots for 49 rounds, but Ali hurt Lyle quite easily when he needed to.
What says you....

Well, Lyle was dealing better with Foreman's punches. Of course, they both had relatively good and relatively bad examples of their abilities to take a punch, but Lyle was better in that overall. As for Norton's fight vs Ali - Ken wasn't easy to Ali in general.

Lyle seemed to get hit with more of Foreman's punches than Norton did. Lyle and Foreman hit each other a lot.

Norton may have blocked many of the punches Lyle got hit with.

[Tuan_Jim]

Getting knocked out by Lynn Ball is a hell of a lot worse than getting knocked out by Earnie Shavers.

I'll say. Jimmy Ellis was knocked out in 1 round by Earnie Shavers and then went 12 rounds with a prime Ron Lyle.

[Tony1244]

Getting knocked out by Lynn Ball is a hell of a lot worse than getting knocked out by Earnie Shavers.

I'll say. Jimmy Ellis was knocked out in 1 round by Earnie Shavers and then went 12 rounds with a prime Ron Lyle.

Shavers was a "you go or I go guy," as Angelo Dundee would call such a fighter. IF Ellis had survived a couple rounds and gotten into a rhythm he could have beaten The Acorn.

Shavers was all puncher. I'd call Lyle and Norton a boxer/puncher giving Lyle a slight edge in power over Norton, but I'd give Ken a great edge in speed and defense over Lyle, which is why I pick Norton over Lyle in any year.

[Tony1244]

Norton bossed LeDoux for 7 rounds. Lyle couldn't outbox or handle the same LeDoux at all. Norton's performance was the better one--plus he also went on to survive a tough rumble with Cobb long after Lyle had expired.

You ignore Lyle getting laid out clean by frail journeyman Lynn Ball but point to Norton getting KOd by Earnie freaking Shavers--who in his next fight put prime Larry Holmes on the deck and had years of big punching left in him. Use your emergency record skimming skills to tell us what Lynn Ball did after he smoked Ron Lyle's corpse.

Lyle takes out Norton. That is how I see it. IMHO. I'm sorry it bothers you so much.

From a guy who sees no difference between a loss to Lynn Ball and a loss to Earnie Shavers, how you see a fight means very little.

Lyle was far passed his prime when he fought Lynn Ball.

[Tuan_Jim]

Getting knocked out by Lynn Ball is a hell of a lot worse than getting knocked out by Earnie Shavers.

I'll say. Jimmy Ellis was knocked out in 1 round by Earnie Shavers and then went 12 rounds with a prime Ron Lyle.

Shavers was a "you go or I go guy," as Angelo Dundee would call such a fighter. IF Ellis had survived a couple rounds and gotten into a rhythm he could have beaten The Acorn.

Shavers was all puncher. I'd call Lyle and Norton a boxer/puncher giving Lyle a slight edge in power over Norton, but I'd give Ken a great edge in speed and defense over Lyle, which is why I pick Norton over Lyle in any year.

Yep, I think we see this one the same way, Tony. I'm a big fan of both men but Lyle had nothing left in 79 when this fight was scheduled--shame it was Lynn Ball and not Ken Norton that got to expose it.

The Jimmy Ellis remark was in reference to Oogiebe's cretinous dismissal of Norton's chances against Lyle because he had been knocked out in 1 round by Shavers--Jimmy Ellis certainly rebuts that argument.

[Tony1244]

I'll say. Jimmy Ellis was knocked out in 1 round by Earnie Shavers and then went 12 rounds with a prime Ron Lyle.

Shavers was a "you go or I go guy," as Angelo Dundee would call such a fighter. IF Ellis had survived a couple rounds and gotten into a rhythm he could have beaten The Acorn.

Shavers was all puncher. I'd call Lyle and Norton a boxer/puncher giving Lyle a slight edge in power over Norton, but I'd give Ken a great edge in speed and defense over Lyle, which is why I pick Norton over Lyle in any year.

Yep, I think we see this one the same way, Tony. I'm a big fan of both men but Lyle had nothing left in 79 when this fight was scheduled--shame it was Lynn Ball and not Ken Norton that got to expose it.

The Jimmy Ellis remark was in reference to Oogiebe's cretinous dismissal of Norton's chances against Lyle because he had been knocked out in 1 round by Shavers--Jimmy Ellis certainly rebuts that argument.

Yeah, but we're all just speculating.

I'm sure a lot of people were called "dummy" for picking Shavers over Norton, Tunney over Dempsey or Quarry over Lyle. etc

[Caractacus]

The "Fightin' Frenchman had fought them both in 1979 (for comparative purposes)

[sweetsci]

Lyle beat LeDoux. Norton could only manage a draw.

Lyle lasted nearly three times longer than Norton against Cooney.

Obviously, Lyle wins.

[Caractacus]

I think Lyle and Ken Norton signed a contract to fight in 1977.
But Norton's camp pulled out and Lyle won a judgement of $ 150,000 for it a couple years later.
1977 should have been the year they actually fought,
because Norton originally retired from the ring after the fight with Earnie Shavers in March 1979,
( he came out of retirement just a few months later because he just bought an expensive house and needed a couple million dollars)
and Lyle was tied up in a murder trial in 1978.

[Esquire]

I remember the televised fight between Norton and Ledoux on NBC. I don't know if I ever saw a fighter as "out-cold" on this feet as Norton was in the tenth round. If I'm not mistaken the round ended a minute early allowing Norton to finish the fight.

Norton was unconscious yet still standing. I thought Ledoux caught a bad break that day.