Calzaghe speaks

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 24 Apr 2006, 10:24

viciousmaussa wrote:i wouldn't be surprised if kessler went on to have one hell of a career. a great jab can take a fighter a long way. but there have been more tragic fights that never happened - Azumah-Brian Mitchell, Pedroza-Salvador Sanchez. Probem is, there aren't too many ppl calling for Calzaghe-Lacy.

if Calzaghe beat Kessler, same thing that happened post Lacy will happen. Lacy (powerful, intimidating, good stamina, very dangerous, improving) became the "slowest of the s/m champs". Kessler (outstanding jab, composed, top quality outside fighter) would probably become "flawed vs southpaws, no KO punch, can't fight inside". if it was Beyer - skilled, fast - it would be "the most vulnerable" if JC beat him

I don't think so. Not only do most people with some boxing knowledge hold Kessler in higher regard than Lacy. But also, with beating Kessler Calzaghe would come close to clearing out the division, and this is an achievement noone could take away from him.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Apr 2006, 10:35

I have to say, I wasn't overly impressed with Kessler, he's a decent boxer, but seemed pretty mechanical and one paced. Took him an age to step on the gas against Lucas, who was offering very little resistance offensively. I've only seen one fight, but then that's all I could get hold of thus far.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Apr 2006, 03:03

we can all say Calzaghe must fight Kessler. but Calzaghe was the one berated to fight Lacy by the bulk of the (very predictable) media. if we want a unified super middleweight you have to blame not only the mags' and websites' infatuation with Lacy, but also the attitude of Markus Beyer. Why would Beyer not unify with Kessler? what makes this guy so above everything to say 'I'll fight the Calzaghe-Lacy winner', when he probably won't anyway?

we have to remember that Calzaghe was rated by most as the best s/m from the late '90s onward, and Beyer was considered inferior to Ottke. now, if Beyer had taken Kessler's bait, one of those two guys would be as highly regarded as Calzaghe. The winner of that fight would be much harder to ignore. Beyer will probably end up getting spanked by Andrade

shootout, unless i'm mistaken (which i could be), didn't you think kessler wasn't as good as lacy, that he pussied out ('gospel according to gary shaw') of a fight with Jeff Left Hook or something?

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Apr 2006, 03:06

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I have to say, I wasn't overly impressed with Kessler, he's a decent boxer, but seemed pretty mechanical and one paced. Took him an age to step on the gas against Lucas, who was offering very little resistance offensively. I've only seen one fight, but then that's all I could get hold of thus far.

well, if you get hold of any more fights you won't change your mind - all his fights are the same. apart from mundine (who gave him a few problems) & JC Green (1 punch KO)

i'm more optimistic about kessler, that jab breaks ppl down

Loynesy · Post by **Loynesy** » 25 Apr 2006, 04:19

Maybe Pundit is seeing something I can't see, but having seen Kessler live once and on DVD loads of times, I simply don't think he is that good.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 25 Apr 2006, 05:24

pundit wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote: Kessler would be in for an almighty beating as well.
.
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Still doesn't.

You will be converted once he beats the hell out of Kesser.

I have your bible and priest uniform ready for you.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 25 Apr 2006, 10:28

Max Molyneux wrote: You will be converted once he beats the hell out of Kesser.

I would be converted even earlier: on the day that Calzaghe takes the fight.

Which means: I'm unlikley to be converted.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Apr 2006, 11:56

right, that's it. Azumah Nelson should be ashamed. after all he never fought long reigning great brian mitchell at super feather. instead he kept winning and losing his WBC title...larry holmes, what are you doing in the hof, you didn't want to face pinklon thomas...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 25 Apr 2006, 11:59

I agree that you shouldn't judge or write off a fighters career just because he doesn't beat one fighter that you think might give him trouble. I would still like to see Calzaghe unify the SM titles rather than go on up to LH to face woods.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 25 Apr 2006, 12:06

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I agree that you shouldn't judge or write off a fighters career just because he doesn't beat one fighter that you think might give him trouble. I would still like to see Calzaghe unify the SM titles rather than go on up to LH to face woods.

This is putting things up-side-down. I don't criticize Calzaghe specifically for not fighting Kessler. I criticize him for the very cautious - to say it politely - choice of opponents during his entire career (as a consequence his record is nowhere near Larry Holmes' or Azumah Nelson's; viciussmaussa's comparison sounds odd to say the least).

Kessler would seem the best challenge at this juncture, but there are other fights that would do Calzaghe's resumee well - Adamek, Erdei, Woods, Beyer; or even one of the leading middleweights. Then agaqin, the obvious challenge is Kessler.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Apr 2006, 15:16

pundit wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:I agree that you shouldn't judge or write off a fighters career just because he doesn't beat one fighter that you think might give him trouble. I would still like to see Calzaghe unify the SM titles rather than go on up to LH to face woods.
This is putting things up-side-down. I don't criticize Calzaghe specifically for not fighting Kessler. I criticize him for the very cautious - to say it politely - choice of opponents during his entire career (as a consequence his record is nowhere near Larry Holmes' or Azumah Nelson's; viciussmaussa's comparison sounds odd to say the least).

Kessler would seem the best challenge at this juncture, but there are other fights that would do Calzaghe's resumee well - Adamek, Erdei, Woods, Beyer; or even one of the leading middleweights. Then agaqin, the obvious challenge is Kessler.

you miss the point pundit.

i'm not saying calzaghe is larry holmes' 2nd cousin. or that he must join Azumah in the HOF.

nelson is meant to be the best ever 130, yet there was a guy who could box better than him, who was also a great fighter, a master technician that he didn't fight. does anyone hold that against nelson? brian was a champ at 130 before nelson was, yet Ring decided when nelson moved up that nelson was The Man

it's a matter of scales. but let's look at this. you're jumping on calzaghe for not fighting kessler, who hasn't be around for that long. kessler hasn't exactly shown himself to be a great fighter yet, let alone a pound for pound one. some of us like what we see of kessler, but others haven't exactly had their socks blown off

that's the moral of the story

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 25 Apr 2006, 15:24

viciousmaussa wrote:
pundit wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:I agree that you shouldn't judge or write off a fighters career just because he doesn't beat one fighter that you think might give him trouble. I would still like to see Calzaghe unify the SM titles rather than go on up to LH to face woods.
This is putting things up-side-down. I don't criticize Calzaghe specifically for not fighting Kessler. I criticize him for the very cautious - to say it politely - choice of opponents during his entire career (as a consequence his record is nowhere near Larry Holmes' or Azumah Nelson's; viciussmaussa's comparison sounds odd to say the least).

Kessler would seem the best challenge at this juncture, but there are other fights that would do Calzaghe's resumee well - Adamek, Erdei, Woods, Beyer; or even one of the leading middleweights. Then agaqin, the obvious challenge is Kessler.
you miss the point pundit.

i'm not saying calzaghe is larry holmes' 2nd cousin. or that he must join Azumah in the HOF.

nelson is meant to be the best ever 130, yet there was a guy who could box better than him, who was also a great fighter, a master technician that he didn't fight. does anyone hold that against nelson? brian was a champ at 130 before nelson was, yet Ring decided when nelson moved up that nelson was The Man

it's a matter of scales. but let's look at this. you're jumping on calzaghe for not fighting kessler, who hasn't be around for that long. kessler hasn't exactly shown himself to be a great fighter yet, let alone a pound for pound one. some of us like what we see of kessler, but others haven't exactly had their socks blown off

that's the moral of the story

So what fight would recommend to Calzaghe for building a lasting reputation outside Cardiff and Liverpool.

Manfredo?

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Apr 2006, 15:42

pundit wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote:
pundit wrote: This is putting things up-side-down. I don't criticize Calzaghe specifically for not fighting Kessler. I criticize him for the very cautious - to say it politely - choice of opponents during his entire career (as a consequence his record is nowhere near Larry Holmes' or Azumah Nelson's; viciussmaussa's comparison sounds odd to say the least).

Kessler would seem the best challenge at this juncture, but there are other fights that would do Calzaghe's resumee well - Adamek, Erdei, Woods, Beyer; or even one of the leading middleweights. Then agaqin, the obvious challenge is Kessler.
you miss the point pundit.

i'm not saying calzaghe is larry holmes' 2nd cousin. or that he must join Azumah in the HOF.

nelson is meant to be the best ever 130, yet there was a guy who could box better than him, who was also a great fighter, a master technician that he didn't fight. does anyone hold that against nelson? brian was a champ at 130 before nelson was, yet Ring decided when nelson moved up that nelson was The Man

it's a matter of scales. but let's look at this. you're jumping on calzaghe for not fighting kessler, who hasn't be around for that long. kessler hasn't exactly shown himself to be a great fighter yet, let alone a pound for pound one. some of us like what we see of kessler, but others haven't exactly had their socks blown off

that's the moral of the story
So what fight would recommend to Calzaghe for building a lasting reputation outside Cardiff and Liverpool.

Manfredo?

depends. go for kessler AND beyer for super middle greatness, or go for taylor/winky/tarver to make another yank impression

OR, get a good win and wait for the next big thing at s/m. lacy, who was on a Calzaghe and a Hatton undercard, worked out nicely. who will the americans fall in love with next? maybe andrade or hopefully bute. young puncher makes a worldwide impression, calzaghe picks him off before he's quite ready for it, would be a good move, for, say, a 2007 retirement fight and defense #20

i'm sure if you asked SN they'd probably say "hmm, let's wait & see" , they don't mind keeping us waiting

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 25 Apr 2006, 15:44

viciousmaussa wrote:OR, get a good win and wait for the next big thing at s/m. lacy, who was on a Calzaghe and a Hatton undercard, worked out nicely. who will the americans fall in love with next? maybe andrade or hopefully bute. young puncher makes a worldwide impression, calzaghe picks him off before he's quite ready for it, would be a good move, for, say, a 2007 retirement fight and defense #20

Is this what you recommend, or what's likely to happen?

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Apr 2006, 15:50

pundit wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote:OR, get a good win and wait for the next big thing at s/m. lacy, who was on a Calzaghe and a Hatton undercard, worked out nicely. who will the americans fall in love with next? maybe andrade or hopefully bute. young puncher makes a worldwide impression, calzaghe picks him off before he's quite ready for it, would be a good move, for, say, a 2007 retirement fight and defense #20
Is this what you recommend, or what's likely to happen?

could happen, but then again ppl might not warm to bute. never know with andrade, as he has earned a shot at beyer. andrade with a wbc title, a possibility. i'm sure showtime would plonk down for it. they seemed to have big plans for s/m 'under the rule of lacy', even to the extent of briging kessler over to america

by next year, if jerman taylor keeps winning, he'll surely be at s/m. if winky wins, he wants revenge for jeff, so that's a neat possibility.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 25 Apr 2006, 15:53

viciousmaussa wrote:
pundit wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote:OR, get a good win and wait for the next big thing at s/m. lacy, who was on a Calzaghe and a Hatton undercard, worked out nicely. who will the americans fall in love with next? maybe andrade or hopefully bute. young puncher makes a worldwide impression, calzaghe picks him off before he's quite ready for it, would be a good move, for, say, a 2007 retirement fight and defense #20
Is this what you recommend, or what's likely to happen?
could happen, but then again ppl might not warm to bute. never know with andrade, as he has earned a shot at beyer. andrade with a wbc title, a possibility. i'm sure showtime would plonk down for it. they seemed to have big plans for s/m 'under the rule of lacy', even to the extent of briging kessler over to america

by next year, if jerman taylor keeps winning, he'll surely be at s/m. if winky wins, he wants revenge for jeff, so that's a neat possibility.

Not sure I got an answer - do you want Calzaghe to wait for the next bum America will fall in love with, or do you want him to fight Kessler?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 25 Apr 2006, 17:52

pundit wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote: You will be converted once he beats the hell out of Kesser.

I would be converted even earlier: on the day that Calzaghe takes the fight.

Which means: I'm unlikley to be converted.

Most thought he would duck Lacy now their converted priests of Calzagheism.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 26 Apr 2006, 02:56

pundit wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote:
pundit wrote: Is this what you recommend, or what's likely to happen?
could happen, but then again ppl might not warm to bute. never know with andrade, as he has earned a shot at beyer. andrade with a wbc title, a possibility. i'm sure showtime would plonk down for it. they seemed to have big plans for s/m 'under the rule of lacy', even to the extent of briging kessler over to america

by next year, if jerman taylor keeps winning, he'll surely be at s/m. if winky wins, he wants revenge for jeff, so that's a neat possibility.
Not sure I got an answer - do you want Calzaghe to wait for the next bum America will fall in love with, or do you want him to fight Kessler?

the fight i'd like to see most is...calzaghe-kessler. but i would also get excited about any of those names, and also i've been hard on calzaghe in the past & i want to give him credit for beating lacy - as his performance was what you'd expect of a top 5 p4p entrant

anyhow, kessler looks doubtful now....Dan Rafael has reported that Calzaghe will probably be fighting on HBO, who have made a very nice offer to show a delay of his next fight, with Khan of course on the undercard.

Rafael says these are the guys HBO want him to fight: Andrade, Allan Green, Manfredo.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 26 Apr 2006, 11:20

viciousmaussa wrote: anyhow, kessler looks doubtful now....Dan Rafael has reported that Calzaghe will probably be fighting on HBO, who have made a very nice offer to show a delay of his next fight, with Khan of course on the undercard.

Rafael says these are the guys HBO want him to fight: Andrade, Allan Green, Manfredo.

Look, you don't need to explain to me "things are as they are- the earth is round and Calzaghe won't fight Kessler". This is my assessment too.

But my quesition is who Calzaghe SHOULD fight. And there the #1 on my and on many other people's list is Kessler. Sure, it's not the only good fight out there - there are 4 or 5 other respectable opponents - but it is the best. And I believe - possibly in contrast to you - that Calzaghe still has a lot to prove before one could talk about top 5 pfp or something. He needs good credible opponents to built a legacy, and he won't get it by fighting Peter Manfredo.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 26 Apr 2006, 16:40

pundit wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote: anyhow, kessler looks doubtful now....Dan Rafael has reported that Calzaghe will probably be fighting on HBO, who have made a very nice offer to show a delay of his next fight, with Khan of course on the undercard.

Rafael says these are the guys HBO want him to fight: Andrade, Allan Green, Manfredo.
Look, you don't need to explain to me "things are as they are- the earth is round and Calzaghe won't fight Kessler". This is my assessment too.

But my quesition is who Calzaghe SHOULD fight. And there the #1 on my and on many other people's list is Kessler. Sure, it's not the only good fight out there - there are 4 or 5 other respectable opponents - but it is the best. And I believe - possibly in contrast to you - that Calzaghe still has a lot to prove before one could talk about top 5 pfp or something. He needs good credible opponents to built a legacy, and he won't get it by fighting Peter Manfredo.

oh, i'm not saying calzaghe is top 5 p4p. what i mean is he definitely looked like a top 5 p4p. he threw some serious leather. absolutely, kessler should be the natural fight, sadly those outside forces are screaming 'america, america' even if the better americans are at 160 and 175. someone - be it network or promoter - could use their frigging imagination and find a way to make this fight have some broad appeal

jc definitely needs another very big win otherwise his career will be an anticlimax. i don't mind too badly if it's taylor etc. what would be interesting is if Calzaghe's 21st defense would be a unification w Kessler. so many fights are sold on the basis of padded records and fake titles. but these would be some serious #s (to break Ottke's record), most of the titles, 2 unbeatens, & more importantly two brilliant fighters.

when you think about it, of all the elite opponents only kessler would be prepared to travel to enland or wales. warren said on his website something about there being a possibility for autumn (when he talks about kessler being a nice kid and his mother's english etc). i wouldn't rule it out just yet

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