BJS pulls out AGAIN

[Enlightened-One]

i have read it and i do not care i told you why one is much more egregious than the other and you come back with what GGG did is wrong and i told you in my first post i agree with you on that so why are you trying to say they're as bad as each other when that just isnt true.

OK, we have a difference of opinion and that’s fine by me.

Tom Loeffler and GGG would have known the lengths that Frānk Wārrĕn and Billy Joe Saunders had to go to, costing several hundreds of thousands of pounds in step-aside fees, missed paydays, dropped asset values etc. in his attempt to clear the way for the Brit to be in a position to engage in a title unification bout against Gennady Golovkin.

My point being is that Saunders actions against Martin Murray were less severe (financially) than GGG’s actions against Billy Joe. From a financial perspective, it’s impossible to argue otherwise.

Sometimes business activity requires two or more parties to act in good faith, rather than solely relying on signatures on contracts. And in this case, GGG cost Team Saunders’ several hundreds of thousands of pounds.

[Ruthless-RKO]

i have read it and i do not care i told you why one is much more egregious than the other and you come back with what GGG did is wrong and i told you in my first post i agree with you on that so why are you trying to say they're as bad as each other when that just isnt true.

My point being is that Saunders actions against Martin Murray were less severe (financially) than GGG’s actions against Billy Joe. From a financial perspective, it’s impossible to argue otherwise.

Sometimes business activity requires two or more parties to act in good faith, rather than solely relying on signatures on contracts. And in this case, GGG cost Team Saunders’ several hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Apart from the stepaside fee, which his promoter would have paid. I doubt Saunders would have started training or had any sparring partners brought in with his own money for the 'potential' GGG fight. Am I correct? Does the boxer usually have to pay for their training camp?

[chinarich]

You must have far too much time on your hands...

Yes I do, but in my defence, this was a post that has been recycled numerous times and has also grown organically in length each time it was resubmitted.

It’s a bit like Groundhog Day in the BoxRec forum, because the same discussions keep happening time-and-time again and most of the time I simply recycle my previous posts rather than reinventing the wheel.

I don't spend as much time doing things as people think I do.

Hmmm, seeing as you like statistics so much, I would say that 95% of your posts are longer than any of mine...

[oogiebe]

His wife says he pulls out every time.

[Thomastearns]

Billy Joe Saunders and allegedly have not covered themselves in glory here. They seem to be trying to outdo Canelo in their shenanigans.

Since the fans were hardly queuing up for tickets the only injured party here is Murray. Training is the hardest thing for most boxers so hopefully he will be compensated in full for frustrating his efforts a second time

I wonder if Saunders is struggling to get motivated for the Murray fight and only agreed in order to keep busy (1-2 fights a year is normal by his standards).

[Enlightened-One]

You must have far too much time on your hands...

Yes I do, but in my defence, this was a post that has been recycled numerous times and has also grown organically in length each time it was resubmitted.

It’s a bit like Groundhog Day in the BoxRec forum, because the same discussions keep happening time-and-time again and most of the time I simply recycle my previous posts rather than reinventing the wheel.

I don't spend as much time doing things as people think I do.

Hmmm, seeing as you like statistics so much, I would say that 95% of your posts are longer than any of mine...

Agreed!

[boxing_rocks]

GGG didn't sign anything with BJS in the first place, so situations are totally different. EO tends to believe everything BJS and Warren are saying about those negotiations, but according to Loeffler, Saunders just wanted too much money.

Take a look at the following facts relating to the timeline of events, which are easily verifiable, for the Golovkin-Saunders situation and then either revise your opinion, remain silent or try to detail any inaccuracies to any of the points listed below:

• 17/12/2016 – The Golovkin-Jacobs fight is officially announced
• 24/01/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders announces a "game-changing fight" that "the fans will genuinely love", which will require him to "travel", not to the "US" but in his opponents' "home country"
• 07/02/2017 – Frānk Wārrĕn announced that middleweight contender Avtandil Khurtsidze would be paid a six-figure step-aside fee, including a shot at the interim version of the WBO middleweight title, to allow Saunders to pursue “a major fight next”
• 13/03/2017 – Billy Joe Saunders claims that he could face GGG “very, very, very, very, very soon”
• 15/03/2017 – The media reports that June 10th is the date set for the GGG-Saunders fight, with Tom Loeffler refusing to confirm the speculation
• 17/03/2017 – Frānk Wārrĕn announces that if Golovkin defeats Jacobs then he wants Saunders next
• 18/03/2017 - Gennady Golovkin scores a decision victory over Danny Jacobs
• 19/03/2017 - GGG challenges the Brit to face him in his native Kazakhstan
• 20/03/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders claims that his team commenced negotiations for the GGG fight before he had even faced Jacobs and that they have already agreed the financial terms of the bout, but were simply waiting for Golovkin's signature
• 21/03/2017 - Oscar De La Hoya claims that Team GGG have to be more fair about contract negotiations based on the financials of the Golovkin-Jacobs fight
• 24/03/2017 - Oscar De La Hoya claims that a June fight between Golovkin & Saunders is disrespectful if they also hope to make the Canelo bout in September, due to the possible risks of injury to Golovkin and also reducing the time available to promote the super-fight
• 25/03/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders urges Golovkin to stop wasting time and take the fight
• 28/03/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders issues a deadline of the 31/03/2017 for GGG to agree the fight
• 29/03/2017 - Abel Sanchez claims that Oscar De La Hoya's threats are one way to say that they don't want the GGG-Canelo fight
• 29/03/2017 – Frānk Wārrĕn claims all the terms of the GGG fight have been accepted, but Golovkin has ten days, which is a deadline of the 08/04/2017, to sign the contract
• 30/03/2017 - Tom Loeffler claims that his team intend to make the Saunders fight, because nothing is signed with Golden Boy
• 30/03/2017 - Tom Loeffler denies knowledge of deadlines imposed by Saunders & Oscar De La Hoya claiming that an announcement would be made during W/C 03/04/2017
• 31/03/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders reminds Golovkin to sign the fight, offers to loan him his pen and also publishes the text messages he received from Tom Loeffler that proved the delay was caused by Team GGG
• 13/04/2017 - Golovkin called off talks of a unification bout against Billy Joe Saunders
• 22/04/2017 - Avtandil Khurtsidze wins the vacant WBO interim middleweight belt, defeating Tommy Langford via 5th round KO.
• 07/05/2017 - Canelo wins one-sided unanimous decision victory over Chávez Jr then officially announces the September showdown with Gennady Golovkin.
• 13/05/2017 - It was announced that Billy Joe Saunders would defend his WBO middleweight title against Avtandil Khurtsidze on the 8th July, 2017
• 09/06/2017 - Billy Joe's bout with Avtandil Khurtsidze was called off after the Georgian boxer was arrested
• 19/06/2017 - Saunders attends the Golovkin-Canelo press conference held in London and mocks Gennady for "losing his pen" and also accuses the Kazakh puncher of "ducking" him, with no member of Team GGG being able to refute Billy Joe's claims

What an absolute load of drivel. Why do you waste people’s time with this garbage?

More importantly, this huge load of garbage doesn't prove anything. It doesn't even mention Golovkin or Loefler agreeing with BJS/Warren on terms. BJS signed something which wasn't approved by the other side.

[caldo2025]

EO ruining another conversation...there's a surprise. Cut and Paste more garbage will you? I've had the same argument with EO before regarding the regularity of BJS's postponements and cancellations of fights he's signed. NO ONE should sign a contract to fight this guy because there's a very good probability, you won't get paid for a year. What a joke he is (BJS and EO).

You have a penchant for assigning the blame entirely on the fighter you perceive as being the “villain”, whilst ignoring any facts that don’t support your beliefs.

Billy Joe Saunders isn’t entirely responsible for all of the fights that he’s signed-up for but were subsequently cancelled.

There is an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence to prove this, but you flatly-refuse to recognise it.

Dude, i've broken down all of BJS delays, postponements and cancellations that were ALL ON HIM. I don't feel like doing it again but you continue to pipe up like i didn' t hand you your lunch already with this debate. You keep spewing some idiotic bs why GGG didn't take the fight one particular day with BJS during a time in which BJS knew that GGG couldn't accept it with all of the money he had on the line in an obvious other fight.

Admit the obvious. BJS is an unreliable opponent and has conducted himself like a chump with the belt. Why he hasn't been stripped already is a travesty. The fact that GGG swatted away BJS fight offer like a mosquito is for obvious reasons. No one wants to tie up a portion of their season of money making with a guy that is probable to postpone or all together cancel a fight. PUNK is what he is.

[Enlightened-One]

EO ruining another conversation...there's a surprise. Cut and Paste more garbage will you? I've had the same argument with EO before regarding the regularity of BJS's postponements and cancellations of fights he's signed. NO ONE should sign a contract to fight this guy because there's a very good probability, you won't get paid for a year. What a joke he is (BJS and EO).

You have a penchant for assigning the blame entirely on the fighter you perceive as being the “villain”, whilst ignoring any facts that don’t support your beliefs.

Billy Joe Saunders isn’t entirely responsible for all of the fights that he’s signed-up for but were subsequently cancelled.

There is an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence to prove this, but you flatly-refuse to recognise it.

Dude, i've broken down all of BJS delays, postponements and cancellations that were ALL ON HIM. I don't feel like doing it again but you continue to pipe up like i didn' t hand you your lunch already with this debate. You keep spewing some idiotic bs why GGG didn't take the fight one particular day with BJS during a time in which BJS knew that GGG couldn't accept it with all of the money he had on the line in an obvious other fight.

Admit the obvious. BJS is an unreliable opponent and has conducted himself like a chump with the belt. Why he hasn't been stripped already is a travesty. The fact that GGG swatted away BJS fight offer like a mosquito is for obvious reasons. No one wants to tie up a portion of their season of money making with a guy that is probable to postpone or all together cancel a fight. PUNK is what he is.

If you've already attempted to provide a breakdown of all of the delays caused by Saunders, then quote your post that details your claims.

I'll review it and provide feedback.

By the way, please don't get annoyed about my request, because if you claim you've done something, then it should only require a trivial amount of effort to prove it.

[Enlightened-One]

Take a look at the following facts relating to the timeline of events, which are easily verifiable, for the Golovkin-Saunders situation and then either revise your opinion, remain silent or try to detail any inaccuracies to any of the points listed below:

• 17/12/2016 – The Golovkin-Jacobs fight is officially announced
• 24/01/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders announces a "game-changing fight" that "the fans will genuinely love", which will require him to "travel", not to the "US" but in his opponents' "home country"
• 07/02/2017 – Frānk Wārrĕn announced that middleweight contender Avtandil Khurtsidze would be paid a six-figure step-aside fee, including a shot at the interim version of the WBO middleweight title, to allow Saunders to pursue “a major fight next”
• 13/03/2017 – Billy Joe Saunders claims that he could face GGG “very, very, very, very, very soon”
• 15/03/2017 – The media reports that June 10th is the date set for the GGG-Saunders fight, with Tom Loeffler refusing to confirm the speculation
• 17/03/2017 – Frānk Wārrĕn announces that if Golovkin defeats Jacobs then he wants Saunders next
• 18/03/2017 - Gennady Golovkin scores a decision victory over Danny Jacobs
• 19/03/2017 - GGG challenges the Brit to face him in his native Kazakhstan
• 20/03/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders claims that his team commenced negotiations for the GGG fight before he had even faced Jacobs and that they have already agreed the financial terms of the bout, but were simply waiting for Golovkin's signature
• 21/03/2017 - Oscar De La Hoya claims that Team GGG have to be more fair about contract negotiations based on the financials of the Golovkin-Jacobs fight
• 24/03/2017 - Oscar De La Hoya claims that a June fight between Golovkin & Saunders is disrespectful if they also hope to make the Canelo bout in September, due to the possible risks of injury to Golovkin and also reducing the time available to promote the super-fight
• 25/03/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders urges Golovkin to stop wasting time and take the fight
• 28/03/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders issues a deadline of the 31/03/2017 for GGG to agree the fight
• 29/03/2017 - Abel Sanchez claims that Oscar De La Hoya's threats are one way to say that they don't want the GGG-Canelo fight
• 29/03/2017 – Frānk Wārrĕn claims all the terms of the GGG fight have been accepted, but Golovkin has ten days, which is a deadline of the 08/04/2017, to sign the contract
• 30/03/2017 - Tom Loeffler claims that his team intend to make the Saunders fight, because nothing is signed with Golden Boy
• 30/03/2017 - Tom Loeffler denies knowledge of deadlines imposed by Saunders & Oscar De La Hoya claiming that an announcement would be made during W/C 03/04/2017
• 31/03/2017 - Billy Joe Saunders reminds Golovkin to sign the fight, offers to loan him his pen and also publishes the text messages he received from Tom Loeffler that proved the delay was caused by Team GGG
• 13/04/2017 - Golovkin called off talks of a unification bout against Billy Joe Saunders
• 22/04/2017 - Avtandil Khurtsidze wins the vacant WBO interim middleweight belt, defeating Tommy Langford via 5th round KO.
• 07/05/2017 - Canelo wins one-sided unanimous decision victory over Chávez Jr then officially announces the September showdown with Gennady Golovkin.
• 13/05/2017 - It was announced that Billy Joe Saunders would defend his WBO middleweight title against Avtandil Khurtsidze on the 8th July, 2017
• 09/06/2017 - Billy Joe's bout with Avtandil Khurtsidze was called off after the Georgian boxer was arrested
• 19/06/2017 - Saunders attends the Golovkin-Canelo press conference held in London and mocks Gennady for "losing his pen" and also accuses the Kazakh puncher of "ducking" him, with no member of Team GGG being able to refute Billy Joe's claims

What an absolute load of drivel. Why do you waste people’s time with this garbage?

More importantly, this huge load of garbage doesn't prove anything. It doesn't even mention Golovkin or Loefler agreeing with BJS/Warren on terms. BJS signed something which wasn't approved by the other side.

Loeffler confirmed the terms were agreed, but Golovkin didn't sign the contract. The deadline was relating to the signature not the negotiations, because if you bothered to pay attention to the sequence of events, the terms of the bout were negotiated before GGG faced Jacobs.

[boxing_rocks]

Loeffler confirmed the terms were agreed, but Golovkin didn't sign the contract.

No, he didn't.

[Enlightened-One]

Loeffler confirmed the terms were agreed, but Golovkin didn't sign the contract.

No, he didn't.

Yes, he did.

[boxing_rocks]

Loeffler confirmed the terms were agreed, but Golovkin didn't sign the contract.

No, he didn't.

Yes, he did.

You don't have any statements from Loefler to back your claim.

[Deleted_Scenes]

What an absolute load of drivel. Why do you waste people’s time with this garbage?

More importantly, this huge load of garbage doesn't prove anything. It doesn't even mention Golovkin or Loefler agreeing with BJS/Warren on terms. BJS signed something which wasn't approved by the other side.

Loeffler confirmed the terms were agreed, but Golovkin didn't sign the contract. The deadline was relating to the signature not the negotiations, because if you bothered to pay attention to the sequence of events, the terms of the bout were negotiated before GGG faced Jacobs.

I think the problem with the GGG/Saunders negotiations was the $20mil carrot being dangled by Canelo. GGG's team openly stated they wanted to take both fights. GBP were also very open in saying if GGG fought Saunders, Canelo would fight someone else.

Not a difficult choice to make, $5mil or $15-20mil...

Of course, Canelo doesn't fornicate around.

[Enlightened-One]

More importantly, this huge load of garbage doesn't prove anything. It doesn't even mention Golovkin or Loefler agreeing with BJS/Warren on terms. BJS signed something which wasn't approved by the other side.

Loeffler confirmed the terms were agreed, but Golovkin didn't sign the contract. The deadline was relating to the signature not the negotiations, because if you bothered to pay attention to the sequence of events, the terms of the bout were negotiated before GGG faced Jacobs.

I think the problem with the GGG/Saunders negotiations was the $20mil carrot being dangled by Canelo. GGG's team openly stated they wanted to take both fights. GBP were also very open in saying if GGG fought Saunders, Canelo would fight someone else.

Not a difficult choice to make, $5mil or $15-20mil...

Of course, Canelo doesn't eff around.

I can agree with what you've said.

[Enlightened-One]

No, he didn't.

Yes, he did.

You don't have any statements from Loefler to back your claim.

Team Saunders (i.e. Billy Joe and Frānk Wārrĕn) published written correspondences from Loeffler to the media. YouTube and several websites displayed them. I have previously posted them to this forum and I know you have commented on them.

Their claims weren't refuted by Tom Loeffler or Abel Sanchez. In fact, Sanchez said that Golovkin was tired and needed a rest to prepare for the Canelo bout.

Saunders actually attended the Canelo-GGG press conference in London, with Loeffler being in attendance… And Billy Joe mocked the Kazakh for “losing his pen” and "not signing the contract". Once again, the Brit’s claims weren’t refuted by Tom Loeffler or Gennady Golovkin. There are YouTube videos of this situation that I know you have seen, since I've posted them before.

If someone made a false claim in front of the media, directly to my face, then I’d refute it. I wouldn’t remain silent and make no attempt to refute it.

That being said, here might be legitimate business reasons why GGG decided against signing the contract to face Saunders (due to them caving into GBP's demands), which both Billy Joe and Frānk Wārrĕn clearly understood, but there’s no point in pretending that there wasn’t a contract and Golovkin decided against signing it.

[boxing_rocks]

I think the problem with the GGG/Saunders negotiations was the $20mil carrot being dangled by Canelo. GGG's team openly stated they wanted to take both fights. GBP were also very open in saying if GGG fought Saunders, Canelo would fight someone else.

Not a difficult choice to make, $5mil or $15-20mil...

Of course, Canelo doesn't eff around.

GBP was definitely a major factor. However, BJS demanding more money than was available was the main obstacle.

[Enlightened-One]

I think the problem with the GGG/Saunders negotiations was the $20mil carrot being dangled by Canelo. GGG's team openly stated they wanted to take both fights. GBP were also very open in saying if GGG fought Saunders, Canelo would fight someone else.

Not a difficult choice to make, $5mil or $15-20mil...

Of course, Canelo doesn't eff around.

GBP was definitely a major factor. However, BJS demanding more money than was available was the main obstacle.

Saunders signed the contract. The financials were agreed.

[boxing_rocks]

Team Saunders (i.e. Billy Joe and Frānk Wārrĕn) published written correspondences from Loeffler to the media. YouTube and several websites displayed them.

So, why are you having a hard time showing those "written correspondences"? Because they don't exist or because they don't support your claims?

[boxing_rocks]

I think the problem with the GGG/Saunders negotiations was the $20mil carrot being dangled by Canelo. GGG's team openly stated they wanted to take both fights. GBP were also very open in saying if GGG fought Saunders, Canelo would fight someone else.

Not a difficult choice to make, $5mil or $15-20mil...

Of course, Canelo doesn't eff around.

GBP was definitely a major factor. However, BJS demanding more money than was available was the main obstacle.

Saunders signed the contract. The financials were agreed.

No, he signed for money he wanted. The other side didn't agree.

[Enlightened-One]

Team Saunders (i.e. Billy Joe and Frānk Wārrĕn) published written correspondences from Loeffler to the media. YouTube and several websites displayed them.

So, why are you having a hard time showing those "written correspondences"? Because they don't exist or because they don't support your claims?

Click on this hyperlink to read the entire article:
"Positive news for Gennady Golovkin vs Billy Joe Saunders"

Earlier this week Saunders made it clear that a fight with the unbeaten Kazakh needed to be signed by Friday, or else he would pursue other options. His promoter, Frānk Wārrĕn, backed up this deadline to Boxing News.

Yesterday, Saunders tweeted a picture of a brief online conversation he had with Golovkin’s promoter, Tom Loeffler, a few weeks ago and insisted he is “moving on” after no major developments occured.


Then watch this video of Saunders saying the following to GGG's face:

"I was supposed to fight you but talks broke down between me and your team... I'm very interested in the fight. My bit was signed to fight you but for some reason you lost your pen!"


Tom Loeffler and Gennady Golovkin made no attempt to undermine the claims made by both Billy Joe Saunders and Frānk Wārrĕn.

Frānk Wārrĕn and Billy Joe Saunders were in close proximity to Gennady Golovkin and Tom Loeffler (in the very same room) and neither of them disputed any of the claims being made by the Brits.

[boxing_rocks]

None of that says that Golovkin/Loefler agreed to whatever BJS signed.

[Enlightened-One]

None of that says that Golovkin/Loefler agreed to whatever BJS signed.

The terms of the fight were negotiated. A contract was then drawn up. Saunders signed it. GGG didn't, probably because of the threats made by GBP.

Tom Loeffler and Gennady Golovkin never even attempted to contradict any of the claims made by both Saunders and Frānk Wārrĕn, even when all four men were sat in the same room. with Billy Joe saying it directly to GGG's face!

I've backed up my claims - you haven't.

[boxing_rocks]

None of that says that Golovkin/Loefler agreed to whatever BJS signed.

The terms of the fight were negotiated. A contract was then drawn up. Saunders signed it. GGG didn't, probably because of the threats made by GBP.

Tom Loeffler and Gennady Golovkin never even attempted to contradict any of the claims made by both Saunders and Frānk Wārrĕn, even when all four men were sat in the same room. with Billy Joe saying it directly to GGG's face!

I've backed up my claims - you haven't.

You backed up your claims with bullsh!t from BJS and Warren. Nothing from Loefler who says that BJS always wanted too much money.

[Enlightened-One]

None of that says that Golovkin/Loefler agreed to whatever BJS signed.

The terms of the fight were negotiated. A contract was then drawn up. Saunders signed it. GGG didn't, probably because of the threats made by GBP.

Tom Loeffler and Gennady Golovkin never even attempted to contradict any of the claims made by both Saunders and Frānk Wārrĕn, even when all four men were sat in the same room. with Billy Joe saying it directly to GGG's face!

I've backed up my claims - you haven't.

You backed up your claims with bullsh!t from BJS and Warren. Nothing from Loefler who says that BJS always wanted too much money.

Saunders signed a contract and he was legally obliged to adhere to its stipulations, which included the financial terms of the fight. GGG didn't sign the contract.

Neither Tom Loeffler nor Gennady Golovkin made any attempt to deny any claims related to their refusal to sign the contract.

You have supplied no evidence of your own to undermine the claims articulated by Frānk Wārrĕn and Billy Joe Saunders.

You are clearly frustrated about my ability to "talk the talk and walk the walk".