Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

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liamlion
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by liamlion »

Onetimeonly wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 04:33 Laughable to call that a robbery, even more laughable to act like lineal doesn't revolve around the judges decision. Even if fury win the fight he still retired. Lineal is a joke, it's just something that people came up with years later to track back when there was a single champion. Nobody was saying Johnson/Jeffries was for the lineal title. Hell, wlad was clearly the man but there was never an absolute moment where he became 'lineal'.
Laughable? No, not at all. It was a robbery. Have a look at the punch stats.

Can you rewatch the fight and tell me what rounds you scored for Wilder?
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Tony1244 »

ewenhay wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 10:43 Charles Martin was an example of taking your money and quitting.
Ever consider sometimes these guys get hit with power that they're not used to?
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by ewenhay »

Tony1244 wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 10:51 Ever consider sometimes these guys get hit with power that they're not used to?

Yes.

And in Martin's case he definitely quit.
Ruthless-RKO
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

Final Punch Stats

Code: Select all

FIGHTER	TOTAL		JABS		POWER
Fury	45 of 158 (29%)	12 of 88 (14%)	33 of 70 (47%)
Schwarz	6 of 30 (20%)	1 of 6 (17%)	5 of 24 (21%)
squiggy
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by squiggy »

Fury beat a guy he was supposed to beat. Wilder beat a guy he was supposed to beat. Joshua lost to a guy he was supposed to beat. Fury won almost all rounds against Wilder. Fury won almost all rounds against Klitschko. All of those things are so obvious they're pretty much objective facts.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by oogiebe »

squiggy wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 11:26 Fury beat a guy he was supposed to beat. Wilder beat a guy he was supposed to beat. Joshua lost to a guy he was supposed to beat. Fury won almost all rounds against Wilder. Fury won almost all rounds against Klitschko. All of those things are so obvious they're pretty much objective facts.
Fury beat a tomato can. Wilder beat a top 10 contender. AJ was upset by a very decent fighter. But Fury almost winning all rounds against Wlad is completely off the board. It was a close fight.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by squiggy »

Fury was winning boring rounds against Wlad by being the only one accomplishing anything at all. Winning a series of god-this-is-boring rounds still adds up to a huge lead on the cards.
I agree that Schwarz is worse than Brezeale and Ruiz, but I'd still characterize the fights the way I did.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by oogiebe »

squiggy wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 11:44 Fury was winning boring rounds against Wlad by being the only one accomplishing anything at all. Winning a series of god-this-is-boring rounds still adds up to a huge lead on the cards.
I agree that Schwarz is worse than Brezeale and Ruiz, but I'd still characterize the fights the way I did.
I had Fury beating Wlad by two rounds. Similar to the judges. I get that you are a Fury fan, but stay real.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Onetimeonly »

liamlion wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 10:47 Laughable? No, not at all. It was a robbery. Have a look at the punch stats.

Can you rewatch the fight and tell me what rounds you scored for Wilder?
Yes, laughable. Funny you bring up punch stats. When somebody outlands another fighter 4-1 It's anybodies round. There were several like that. Hell no I won't rewatch that fight, it was terrible.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Rob3_142 »

HomicideHenry wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 03:46 :roll: The belts are nothing more than trinkets... a ploy by promoters and organizations just to make money and run a monopoly on an already corrupt business.

The fact of business is this. Claimants, whether legitimate or pretender, have to be faced and met. Otherwise what kind of king are you? Whether it be sports or wars, you don't focus on small potatoes.

Richard III rightfully went after Henry Tudor because he was a threat. Henry Tudor went after Perkin Warbeck because he was a threat. You don't take lesser fights unless it sets up the big ones. This is chess not checkers.

If I was a so-called champion with belts I'd be ashamed of myself if some undefeated ex-champion was still around. How could I ever call myself truly the champion if I didn't eliminate the biggest threat?

Joshua, like some spoiled monarch just waiting to be felled grew complacent on the throne and took on a peasant thinking he could never lose, and was thoroughly battered.

Now had he taken it all seriously, demanding his chief advisor to make a fight with Fury or Wilder no matter the money, he'd of had the proper mindset and taken all precautions. The fact he wasn't willing to do that shows me he always was a pretender.
This is a very convoluted way to say nothing.

Joshua was the champion with 3(4) of the heavyweight belts. Irrespective of how he got them, he got them non-the-less. He was rightly pursuing Wilder and Fury, thus to confirm his legendary status, which he would not have achieved without the biggest wins available to him at the time.

It is very clear that he overlooked Ruiz Jr (as we all did). He was prepared to fight Miller, but had a change of opponent about 4 weeks prior to fight night. He managed it sufficiently against Takam, but was unable to do so against Ruiz. He has a chance to rectify that. If he blows Ruiz Jr away, then we return to BAU. If he loses in spectacular fashion, then Joshua's dream is over, and we're whittled down to Wilder and Fury.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Rob3_142 »

DrDuke wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 03:45 You can't take away the Lineal title from The Gypsy King. Joshua beat the beaten Klitschko, the Lineage remained with The Gypsy King.
As with any title, if you're inactive for any period of time, you concede that accolade. Just as he did with the world title trinkets, he has to work at redeeming that position.

Joshua became lineal champion with his string of high profile wins, which he just lost to Ruiz.

Nobody wants Ruiz to be lineal champion, but he probably is. If Fury wants his lineal champion status back, Ruiz should be his target.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by DrDuke »

Rob3_142 wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 14:58 As with any title, if you're inactive for any period of time, you concede that accolade. Just as he did with the world title trinkets, he has to work at redeeming that position.

Joshua became lineal champion with his string of high profile wins, which he just lost to Ruiz.

Nobody wants Ruiz to be lineal champion, but he probably is. If Fury wants his lineal champion status back, Ruiz should be his target.
Lineage can be changed only by beating the Man. No inactivity works here. Retirement is the only exception for logical reasons. Fury didn't actually retire.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Rob3_142 »

HomicideHenry wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 04:36 Considering Ruiz never was a banger. Considering Ruiz never was impressive throughout his career. I think that speaks more to the fact AJ was either a manufactured fighter or he simply gave up, therefore no heart and no real interest in being champion.

More impressive? It was fun. But the reality is a 15-1 underdog beat a fake champion.

I'd expect real fighters to have long drug out grueling matches with other legitimate top men. So Fury being robbed in a draw against Wilder after losing 110+ pounds was far more impressive.

Context is king. Wilder was expected to knock over Fury and couldn't do it. Looked like an amateur in there. AJ was expected to blow out Ruiz and got his ass handed to him. There's no comparison. Fury has the goods, Joshua obviously doesn't.
That's a very one sided perspective. Joshua still has a much better resume than Wilder and Fury, which cannot and should not be discounted. Joshua cruised to a points victory against Parker, and Ruiz lost on points to Parker. There's a lot more to it than that, of course, but that provides your context. A fight against Breazeale for Wilder and a fight against Schwartz for Fury does nothing for either's reputation and/or legacy.

The Wilder/Fury rematch, and Joshua/Ruiz rematch will define this division. There's not much more which can be said difinitively before then.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Rob3_142 »

HomicideHenry wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 05:00 How sure are you about that?

Charles Martin?
Carlos Takam?
Dominic Breazele?
39 Year Old, Off PEDs Povetkin?
Older, Inactive, Passive Klitschko?

The only live wire was Parker, and he may as well have been fighting two guys in the ring that night because the referee kept dicking him around. So we never really saw what would have really went down had Joshua not had the referee in Eddie Hearn's pocket.

He was positioned perfectly to the title. But I'd argue--- like Mike Tyson in the 80s--- if it was anyone else who had beaten those guys, nobody would have given a crap. It was how he won the fights.

Unfortunately, knockouts and bodies are like crack for passionate fans who cannot resist buying into the hype rather than seeing the truth--- there was many unanswered questions about Joshua, and his flaws were visible but nobody had yet capitalized on them.

Boxers, Movers, Stylists, almost never get any credit in this business. They'd rather a Gerry Cooney was champion instead of a Larry Holmes. They'd rather the fighter with the Instagram model body and fake smile to be champion, than the Gypsy who fires jabs and has love handles. They'd rather a guy who looks like the Pillsbury Doughboy as champion, just because he throws hooks, instead of the guy who is a thinking fighter.

It's not unlike how many people here on BoxRec were mightily upset Canelo lost to Floyd Mayweather or Hatton losing to Mayweather. "We don't want the master boxer, we want the banger." It's a thankless job fighting scientifically.
You can spin Joshua's opponents anyway you want, but if you look hard enough you could pose the same questions/points for any of Fury's or Wilder's opponents. In a shallow division, Joshua has the best resume, without question.

Nobody takes Fury's wins/performance against Klitschko and Wilder, but we would have all loved to see the Klitschko rematch which never happened, and we all wait with bated breath for the Wilder rematch (which was originally shelved because of Fury).

One thing you just have to accept is this is not just about pure sport. This is about marketing a product to an audience. It is always going to be easier to sell the Joshua v Klitschko fight than the Fury v Klitschko fight. When you're selling PPVs, one will simply sell better than the other.

Yes, we all love the fresh perspective of Fury. But let us not forget the 3 years of inactivity (which damaged the division) and the absolute tripe he was spouting before he decided to bin the boxing (which damaged his own reputation). There is collateral damage to his actions, and they have to be accepted.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Rob3_142 »

DrDuke wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 15:03 Lineage can be changed only by beating the Man. No inactivity works here. Retirement is the only exception for logical reasons. Fury didn't actually retire.
Oh come on, that isn't logical at all. Just because Fury didn't announce his retirement (which he did threaten on numerous occasions), it doesn't mean that he maintains a very lofty position in the sport. Is it fair to say that had Fury not come back, he would still be lineal champion, 20 years from now?
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Neil Gee »

Onetimeonly wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 03:49 Lineal is absurdly outdated, but if it isn't vacant Ruiz is the lineal champ.
It is based on how the heavyweight championship changed hands before the alphabet boys got involved in the 60's.

There are some absurdities that arise with lineal champions when they are inactive, like we are supposed to believe that Jess Willard was the best heavyweight on the planet for 4 years, and that applies to Fury too because he took two and a half years off and then defended against Sefer Seferi.

But we saw a peak TF this weekend. He's motivated & I think he is the best heavyweight on the planet. I thought he beat Wilder and it will be more emphatic next time.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by liamlion »

Onetimeonly wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 13:16 Yes, laughable. Funny you bring up punch stats. When somebody outlands another fighter 4-1 It's anybodies round. There were several like that. Hell no I won't rewatch that fight, it was terrible.
You literally don’t have a clue pal. I don’t believe youve seen the fight. Go and watch the fight with the volume down. At least then it will allow you to give an informed opinion.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Onetimeonly »

liamlion wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 16:32 You literally don’t have a clue pal. I don’t believe youve seen the fight. Go and watch the fight with the volume down. At least then it will allow you to give an informed opinion.
As I've told you, I'll never watch that abysmal fight again. What exactly would turning down the volume do for me, honeybunny?
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by ironbeard »

liamlion wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 16:32 You literally don’t have a clue pal. I don’t believe youve seen the fight. Go and watch the fight with the volume down. At least then it will allow you to give an informed opinion.
If anyone deserved that decision it was Wilder. Draw was fine. Close win for Fury would have been wrong but I wouldn’t have whined for months about it like some on here do every time a decision does not go their way.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by caldo2025 »

jamamb wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 04:43 knocking out aj is certanly a better result then drawing with wilder

aj had already handily beaten a number of guys better or just as good as ruiz, its not like he was some fraud who got found out as soon as he stepped up. he was an olympic champ, unified pro champ, and consensus 1. ruiz overcame bigger odds then fury and was much more convincging. i thought fury edged wilder too, but theres certanly room for argument (i can see how ppl couldve had a draw), whereas ruiz left none of that
Why don’t people ever consider that a fighter could possibly get better. I keep hearing how Ruiz has always been “this” or “that”. The guy just had two very impressive ko’s Against quality. Sometimes pro athletes end up finding it and learn to get the most of their craft. I think the kid got disciplined and stayed busy and is someone we all glossed over. I could be wrong but maybe someday we’ll be looking at AJ’s loss as being less of a miraculous event.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by ewenhay »

caldo2025 wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 20:35 Why don’t people ever consider that a fighter could possibly get better. I keep hearing how Ruiz has always been “this” or “that”. The guy just had two very impressive ko’s Against quality. Sometimes pro athletes end up finding it and learn to get the most of their craft. I think the kid got disciplined and stayed busy and is someone we all glossed over. I could be wrong but maybe someday we’ll be looking at AJ’s loss as being less of a miraculous event.
I agree. Fighters improve, fighters deteriorate. Some peak at different stages than others.

It's the same with posters who flatly refuse to consider Joshua v Whyte 2 because "we've seen that before".

Maybe we have but maybe Whyte would have a better shot now we're a few years down the line.

Boxing history is full of examples where fighters turned their careers around. But in this day and age people wouldn't give them a second chance.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by lazboy »

ewenhay wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 20:41 I agree. Fighters improve, fighters deteriorate. Some peak at different stages than others.

It's the same with posters who flatly refuse to consider Joshua v Whyte 2 because "we've seen that before".

Maybe we have but maybe Whyte would have a better shot now we're a few years down the line.

Boxing history is full of examples where fighters turned their careers around. But in this day and age people wouldn't give them a second chance.
:TU:
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by Evander »

Easy fight for Tyson Fury, Schwarz walked into everything expected.
Showcase fight.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by liamlion »

Onetimeonly wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 17:39 As I've told you, I'll never watch that abysmal fight again. What exactly would turning down the volume do for me, honeybunny?
Honeybunny? Up the meds son. The current ones clearly aren’t working...

Ps turning the volume down might allow you to concentrate that bit more.
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Re: Round-by-Round: Tyson Fury vs. Tom Schwarz - June 15, 2019

Post by liamlion »

ironbeard wrote: 16 Jun 2019, 20:08 If anyone deserved that decision it was Wilder. Draw was fine. Close win for Fury would have been wrong but I wouldn’t have whined for months about it like some on here do every time a decision does not go their way.
Wow! On what basis exactly? Certainly not on the punches landed stats...
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