Was/Is Wilder's career essentially a sham?

[margaret thatcher]

Not much tbh, haven't been up to date with the ring for a bit. I know of Fury's case but thought they had different standards for their champs and allowed a longer window of inactivity

[Enlightened-One]

Not much tbh, haven't been up to date with the ring for a bit. I know of Fury's case but thought they had different standards for their champs and allowed a longer window of inactivity

There are only rules related to The RING champion. There aren’t any about contenders.

The RING champion only loses their belt if they haven’t competed in their own weight class within the last 18 months or two years if they do compete, but haven't faced a top-five contender during that timeframe, but they haven’t always applied their rules. And if they're stripped of their RING championship, this doesn't mean they're also removed from their rankings either.

There are no rules related to when contenders are removed from their rankings.

[TheGingerBomber]

With EO’s factoid list, it’s easy to see where Wilder stands. An over-achiever in the sense that he had a long reign and still boasts a fantastic KO percentage. He fought many poor opponents on the up, and as stated, lost many rounds to really poor guys like Washington & Szpilka. The way Fury took him apart in the first fight was glaring, with Fury coming back from his huge lay off. But then Fury looks poor against Wallin and in the rematch decides to show Wilder how you’re meant to fight on the front foot.

Wilder is probably the worst “boxer” to ever have a title defence in the HW division. But he deserves credit for beating Stiverne the first time and Ortiz twice.

[badkatt]

yes

[margaret thatcher]

I guess I'd ask , a sham by what standard? Because I mean like Wilder has largely been ragged on by boxing fans for years and acknowledged that his opposition has been pretty weak. You aren't getting many saying he's that good or anything, Sham seems more fitting for a guy who we were sucking off and hyping who turned out to be way below that

[margaret thatcher]

only occasiionally do you get someone like our boi @Tony1244 picking him to KO all of prime Holyfield and Louis and Bowe. Now I'd say if we all had thought so overwhelmingly highly of Wilder, that he'd seem more shammy and fraudy at this point

[Perseus]

Not a sham.
The Wilder skill set and the career he has had thus far says over achiever who exceeded expectations.

The first few times I saw him I thought he would get beat the first time he faced someone slightly better than a club-fighter and had no chance at ever becoming a legit top 5 in his division.
Hell I thought Kelvin Price would beat him.............................................then that right hand landed.
Eventually we learned that despite all the flaws the power is real.
A lot of his opponents were/are better technical boxers but can't deal with the Wilder right hand.

When Wilder finally did get beat it wasn't a journeyman who did it, it wasn't a fringe contender or fading veteran who finally put an "L" on his record.
It was the top heavyweight in the division.
You think Joshua is the top heavyweight?
OK, it was at worst the second best heavyweight.

What did it take to defeat Wilder?
A far better boxer who showed up in shape and still brings a 40+ lbs weight advantage into the ring with him. He is also undefeated, has a legit claim as the lineal champ and seems to be on a career path that will lead to the hall of fame.
There is no shame in losing to that guy.

He showed everybody else how to beat Wilder?
Yeah, if they can deal with his punch. At 6' 9" with a 40+ lbs weight advantage(that is not a result of just being fat) he can deal with the power.
An opponent who doesn't have that size advantage isn't going to be able to bully Wilder or deal with the power.
Fury showed what HE can do not what everybody else can do. If every decent heavyweight could do that to Wilder he never would have got to Fury. Heavyweights not named Tyson Fury will have to find a different way to beat Wilder.

Wilder was supposed to lose spectacularly the first time he faced someone with a pulse but kept winning until he faced the best in the division.
Not a sham.

[margaret thatcher]

I think and have thought for a while that in general taking it to Wilder is the way to go though even if you're not 6'8 and 270--so many people are just simplistic strategists and think you need to run from power hitters. Nah, try to cut his space to extend the long right hand, which is by miles his best weapon and its hardest when a guy is on the outside. This approach can also make his tentativeness even more pronounced, and he's not got much as far as mid/close range. Before the first fight I thought Fury should try to beat him through smothering and bullying, and I know after that fight Roach was unhappy with Ben Davison for not having Fury be more aggressive. Fury is the best hw , though I don;t think he is particularly durable btw

At this point, age and mentatlity after a beating are possibly coming into it. It will be interesting to see how he bounces back and if he can still produce some good wins, he should still be able to ktfo most guys but there are interesting fights out there aside from Fury

[Finkel]

Wilder was supposed to lose spectacularly the first time he faced someone with a pulse but kept winning until he faced the best in the division.
Not a sham.

Exactly!
Not only did Ortiz have a pulse, he also had issues with high blood pressure for good measure!
Surely Wilder gets bonus points for that!

Bravo I say, bravo!

[lazboy]

Wilder was supposed to lose spectacularly the first time he faced someone with a pulse but kept winning until he faced the best in the division.
Not a sham.

Exactly!
Not only did Ortiz have a pulse, he also had issues with high blood pressure for good measure!
Surely Wilder gets bonus points for that!

Bravo I say, bravo!

Tsk, tsk.

He’s in good shape for a 65 year old Cuban.

[ewenhay]

Not a sham.
The Wilder skill set and the career he has had thus far says over achiever who exceeded expectations.

The first few times I saw him I thought he would get beat the first time he faced someone slightly better than a club-fighter and had no chance at ever becoming a legit top 5 in his division.
Hell I thought Kelvin Price would beat him.............................................then that right hand landed.
Eventually we learned that despite all the flaws the power is real.
A lot of his opponents were/are better technical boxers but can't deal with the Wilder right hand.

When Wilder finally did get beat it wasn't a journeyman who did it, it wasn't a fringe contender or fading veteran who finally put an "L" on his record.
It was the top heavyweight in the division.
You think Joshua is the top heavyweight?
OK, it was at worst the second best heavyweight.

What did it take to defeat Wilder?
A far better boxer who showed up in shape and still brings a 40+ lbs weight advantage into the ring with him. He is also undefeated, has a legit claim as the lineal champ and seems to be on a career path that will lead to the hall of fame.
There is no shame in losing to that guy.

He showed everybody else how to beat Wilder?
Yeah, if they can deal with his punch. At 6' 9" with a 40+ lbs weight advantage(that is not a result of just being fat) he can deal with the power.
An opponent who doesn't have that size advantage isn't going to be able to bully Wilder or deal with the power.
Fury showed what HE can do not what everybody else can do. If every decent heavyweight could do that to Wilder he never would have got to Fury. Heavyweights not named Tyson Fury will have to find a different way to beat Wilder.

Wilder was supposed to lose spectacularly the first time he faced someone with a pulse but kept winning until he faced the best in the division.
Not a sham.

Good post. Whilst his record relatively shallow he's only lost once (officially) and that was against the guy who is the best in the division by some distance

[Tevfik1907]

Now you are blaming Wilder for not fighting against AJ?

That's both of their problem, not Wilder's only.

AJ: We will fight at England and with reality contracts. (70/30 or 60/40 for me)
Wilder: We will fight at USA, or we will fight with 50/50 at England.

AJ: f**** off, I have 4 belts I won more money, keep your WBC belt to yourself


None of them agreed, there are 2 major belts; WBC and WBA. And Wilder had one of them, IBF and WBO are not so important.

So you can also blame AJ for not fighting with Wilder for years and not taking the WBC belt as well. At some point, you need to accept the unfair conditions to be something greater; such as being the undisputed champ since Ali, Tyson, Holyfied and Lewis.

But that's both AJ's and Wilder's fault that we never see one, instead of both of them fought people like Dominic Breazeale.

AJ should've accept Wilder's offer for one time only, and then take his belt then you can decide the conditions all you want. It wouldn't hurt to earn a little less money for one time in exchange of being the undisputed champ for a change. You're already a millionaire, but you are not the undisputed champ.

He didn't do that, instead he got his ass kicked by Ruiz, then he f**** up his schedule very bad, he wasted half year for fighting against Ruiz again, and then he needed vacate one of his precious belts (IBF) or he needs to fight someone like Pulev (another waste of time) so he can keep the useless IBF belt.

I would never understand AJ's mentality, no one cares about IBF or WBO... You need to prove that you can take down a reigning champion first, and you never did that, all you did was winning the vacated belts, just like Wilder did.

If you think Wilder purposely ducked AJ and he didn't fight him so he could stay as WBC's champion, well that's also AJ's problem, he should have take the belt by accepting Wilder's conditions, so Wilder couldn't duck again after losing the belt in the future, even if we assume that Wilder wanted to duck.

Wilder wasn't the owner of a petty belt like IBO, IBF or WBO, he had a major belt, and if you can't get it from him, that's also your problem. You need to take it from him one way or another, this is not like ducking a challenger, this is a belt fight that you don't have.

Instead we watched Eddie Hearn, asking people on the streets that ''do you know Deontay Wilder?'' , ''oh you don't know him?'' ''see this is why we don't fight and accept Wilder's conditions''.... Lmao...

Eddie, your boy didn't have the WBC belt, no one f**** cares about that, stop fooling around and make the fight. But they didn't. They both f***** up.

That's the difference between Fury and AJ, Fury accepted Wilder's conditions, and he fought with him twice in USA, first he won but he got robbed, he didn't cry and he never made that a big problem while he could've easily and no one would say anything about it, then what he did? Ok, if you have a biased judge, then I will knock your ass in USA and no judge will save your ass again, that's exactly what Fury did. That's how you can be the undisputed champion, winning under unfair conditions without whinning about the contracts or the biased judges.

I am %100 million percent sure that even if AJ would accepted Wilder's offer (he wouldn't anyway) to fight in USA with 50/50 contract, and if AJ got robbed by a biased judge and leave the fight with a draw, then he would cry about it all the time and he would never fight with Wilder in USA with 50/50 contract again.

That's the difference between Fury and AJ, no crying, no making excuses, just old school ass whooping and winning the belt.

[Onetimeonly]

I guess I'd ask , a sham by what standard? Because I mean like Wilder has largely been ragged on by boxing fans for years and acknowledged that his opposition has been pretty weak. You aren't getting many saying he's that good or anything, Sham seems more fitting for a guy who we were sucking off and hyping who turned out to be way below that

If you're talking to someone telling you is a legend you could overreact and call him a sham, but I'd bet he'd be top 25 in any era.

[Finkel]

I guess I'd ask , a sham by what standard? Because I mean like Wilder has largely been ragged on by boxing fans for years and acknowledged that his opposition has been pretty weak. You aren't getting many saying he's that good or anything, Sham seems more fitting for a guy who we were sucking off and hyping who turned out to be way below that

If you're talking to someone telling you is a legend you could overreact and call him a sham, but I'd bet he'd be top 25 in any era.

I think that is a fair assessment

[Finkel]

Now you are blaming Wilder for not fighting against AJ?

That's both of their problem, not Wilder's only.

AJ: We will fight at England and with reality contracts. (70/30 or 60/40 for me)
Wilder: We will fight at USA, or we will fight with 50/50 at England.

AJ: f**** off, I have 4 belts I won more money, keep your WBC belt to yourself


None of them agreed, there are 2 major belts; WBC and WBA. And Wilder had one of them, IBF and WBO are not so important.

So you can also blame AJ for not fighting with Wilder for years and not taking the WBC belt as well. At some point, you need to accept the unfair conditions to be something greater; such as being the undisputed champ since Ali, Tyson, Holyfied and Lewis.

But that's both AJ's and Wilder's fault that we never see one, instead of both of them fought people like Dominic Breazeale.

AJ should've accept Wilder's offer for one time only, and then take his belt then you can decide the conditions all you want. It wouldn't hurt to earn a little less money for one time in exchange of being the undisputed champ for a change. You're already a millionaire, but you are not the undisputed champ.

He didn't do that, instead he got his ass kicked by Ruiz, then he f**** up his schedule very bad, he wasted half year for fighting against Ruiz again, and then he needed vacate one of his precious belts (IBF) or he needs to fight someone like Pulev (another waste of time) so he can keep the useless IBF belt.

I would never understand AJ's mentality, no one cares about IBF or WBO... You need to prove that you can take down a reigning champion first, and you never did that, all you did was winning the vacated belts, just like Wilder did.

If you think Wilder purposely ducked AJ and he didn't fight him so he could stay as WBC's champion, well that's also AJ's problem, he should have take the belt by accepting Wilder's conditions, so Wilder couldn't duck again after losing the belt in the future, even if we assume that Wilder wanted to duck.

Wilder wasn't the owner of a petty belt like IBO, IBF or WBO, he had a major belt, and if you can't get it from him, that's also your problem. You need to take it from him one way or another, this is not like ducking a challenger, this is a belt fight that you don't have.

Instead we watched Eddie Hearn, asking people on the streets that ''do you know Deontay Wilder?'' , ''oh you don't know him?'' ''see this is why we don't fight and accept Wilder's conditions''.... Lmao...

Eddie, your boy didn't have the WBC belt, no one f**** cares about that, stop fooling around and make the fight. But they didn't. They both f***** up.

That's the difference between Fury and AJ, Fury accepted Wilder's conditions, and he fought with him twice in USA, first he won but he got robbed, he didn't cry and he never made that a big problem while he could've easily and no one would say anything about it, then what he did? Ok, if you have a biased judge, then I will knock your ass in USA and no judge will save your ass again, that's exactly what Fury did. That's how you can be the undisputed champion, winning under unfair conditions without whinning about the contracts or the biased judges.

I am %100 million percent sure that even if AJ would accepted Wilder's offer (he wouldn't anyway) to fight in USA with 50/50 contract, and if AJ got robbed by a biased judge and leave the fight with a draw, then he would cry about it all the time and he would never fight with Wilder in USA with 50/50 contract again.

That's the difference between Fury and AJ, no crying, no making excuses, just old school ass whooping and winning the belt.

I myself am often critical of Joshua on this forum, but that post is an absolute dumpster fire of nonsense.


Wilder doesn't even have the WBC title, and he is still blocking the undisputed fight.
No one outside of Wilder's deluded hardcore fans actively wants to see the third Fury fight next.

It's always been about positioning Wilder to make as much money as possible in an undisputed fight. And it all came crashing down like a house of cards. Lou Dibella must be laughing his tits off.

Schadenfreude It's a hell of a thing

[Stuarty]

Not a sham no. He's still a legit top contender and has made a fortune from the game. He's iced some decent opponents. You'd be foolish to completely write him off in the third Fury fight. Hopefully Fury leathers him but you can't count him out.

[candyslim]

"Sham" is very harsh but he has enjoyed the benefits of being extremely overprotected, even if you can call it a benefit. With more ambitious matchmaking it could be Wilder may have become a far better boxer and a way more worthy champion, and I would have loved to have seen him in fights against genuine contenders.

He has made ten successful defences albeit against filtered opposition, and he has been a very exciting 'don't blink' kind of fighter. That's not too shabby but I do think he was held back and deprived of the opportunity to be so much more.

I realize I'm sounding like he's not around anymore but realistically at approaching 35, and his well known aversion to training, I don't see much scope for re-invention or even improvement at this late stage. The guys that might beat him can still be counted on one hand though, let's not forget that.

[cormack]

Wilder is going to dominate Fury worse in the third fight than Fury dominated Wilder in the second.

LOL

[Tevfik1907]

Now you are blaming Wilder for not fighting against AJ?

That's both of their problem, not Wilder's only.

AJ: We will fight at England and with reality contracts. (70/30 or 60/40 for me)
Wilder: We will fight at USA, or we will fight with 50/50 at England.

AJ: f**** off, I have 4 belts I won more money, keep your WBC belt to yourself


None of them agreed, there are 2 major belts; WBC and WBA. And Wilder had one of them, IBF and WBO are not so important.

So you can also blame AJ for not fighting with Wilder for years and not taking the WBC belt as well. At some point, you need to accept the unfair conditions to be something greater; such as being the undisputed champ since Ali, Tyson, Holyfied and Lewis.

But that's both AJ's and Wilder's fault that we never see one, instead of both of them fought people like Dominic Breazeale.

AJ should've accept Wilder's offer for one time only, and then take his belt then you can decide the conditions all you want. It wouldn't hurt to earn a little less money for one time in exchange of being the undisputed champ for a change. You're already a millionaire, but you are not the undisputed champ.

He didn't do that, instead he got his ass kicked by Ruiz, then he f**** up his schedule very bad, he wasted half year for fighting against Ruiz again, and then he needed vacate one of his precious belts (IBF) or he needs to fight someone like Pulev (another waste of time) so he can keep the useless IBF belt.

I would never understand AJ's mentality, no one cares about IBF or WBO... You need to prove that you can take down a reigning champion first, and you never did that, all you did was winning the vacated belts, just like Wilder did.

If you think Wilder purposely ducked AJ and he didn't fight him so he could stay as WBC's champion, well that's also AJ's problem, he should have take the belt by accepting Wilder's conditions, so Wilder couldn't duck again after losing the belt in the future, even if we assume that Wilder wanted to duck.

Wilder wasn't the owner of a petty belt like IBO, IBF or WBO, he had a major belt, and if you can't get it from him, that's also your problem. You need to take it from him one way or another, this is not like ducking a challenger, this is a belt fight that you don't have.

Instead we watched Eddie Hearn, asking people on the streets that ''do you know Deontay Wilder?'' , ''oh you don't know him?'' ''see this is why we don't fight and accept Wilder's conditions''.... Lmao...

Eddie, your boy didn't have the WBC belt, no one f**** cares about that, stop fooling around and make the fight. But they didn't. They both f***** up.

That's the difference between Fury and AJ, Fury accepted Wilder's conditions, and he fought with him twice in USA, first he won but he got robbed, he didn't cry and he never made that a big problem while he could've easily and no one would say anything about it, then what he did? Ok, if you have a biased judge, then I will knock your ass in USA and no judge will save your ass again, that's exactly what Fury did. That's how you can be the undisputed champion, winning under unfair conditions without whinning about the contracts or the biased judges.

I am %100 million percent sure that even if AJ would accepted Wilder's offer (he wouldn't anyway) to fight in USA with 50/50 contract, and if AJ got robbed by a biased judge and leave the fight with a draw, then he would cry about it all the time and he would never fight with Wilder in USA with 50/50 contract again.

That's the difference between Fury and AJ, no crying, no making excuses, just old school ass whooping and winning the belt.

I myself am often critical of Joshua on this forum, but that post is an absolute dumpster fire of nonsense.


Wilder doesn't even have the WBC title, and he is still blocking the undisputed fight.
No one outside of Wilder's deluded hardcore fans actively wants to see the third Fury fight next.

It's always been about positioning Wilder to make as much money as possible in an undisputed fight. And it all came crashing down like a house of cards. Lou Dibella must be laughing his tits off.

Schadenfreude It's a hell of a thing

It looks like you didn't read my post because I was talking about Wilder's past career, not right now.

[Lennox]

He's not a sham, but for 10+ defenses, 40+ knockouts, there is little depth of quality wins. Stiv and Breazeale may well be in his top 3 opponents beaten. Beating Ort was good though. His career has been more quantity than quality, but still been a top 3 HW for several years now and he did also get a draw first time vs Fury

He surpassed my expectations from when he was coming up with so many awful opponents

+1

[keirw]

Now you are blaming Wilder for not fighting against AJ?

That's both of their problem, not Wilder's only.

AJ: We will fight at England and with reality contracts. (70/30 or 60/40 for me)
Wilder: We will fight at USA, or we will fight with 50/50 at England.

AJ: f**** off, I have 4 belts I won more money, keep your WBC belt to yourself


None of them agreed, there are 2 major belts; WBC and WBA. And Wilder had one of them, IBF and WBO are not so important.

So you can also blame AJ for not fighting with Wilder for years and not taking the WBC belt as well. At some point, you need to accept the unfair conditions to be something greater; such as being the undisputed champ since Ali, Tyson, Holyfied and Lewis.

But that's both AJ's and Wilder's fault that we never see one, instead of both of them fought people like Dominic Breazeale.

AJ should've accept Wilder's offer for one time only, and then take his belt then you can decide the conditions all you want. It wouldn't hurt to earn a little less money for one time in exchange of being the undisputed champ for a change. You're already a millionaire, but you are not the undisputed champ.

He didn't do that, instead he got his ass kicked by Ruiz, then he f**** up his schedule very bad, he wasted half year for fighting against Ruiz again, and then he needed vacate one of his precious belts (IBF) or he needs to fight someone like Pulev (another waste of time) so he can keep the useless IBF belt.

I would never understand AJ's mentality, no one cares about IBF or WBO... You need to prove that you can take down a reigning champion first, and you never did that, all you did was winning the vacated belts, just like Wilder did.

If you think Wilder purposely ducked AJ and he didn't fight him so he could stay as WBC's champion, well that's also AJ's problem, he should have take the belt by accepting Wilder's conditions, so Wilder couldn't duck again after losing the belt in the future, even if we assume that Wilder wanted to duck.

Wilder wasn't the owner of a petty belt like IBO, IBF or WBO, he had a major belt, and if you can't get it from him, that's also your problem. You need to take it from him one way or another, this is not like ducking a challenger, this is a belt fight that you don't have.

Instead we watched Eddie Hearn, asking people on the streets that ''do you know Deontay Wilder?'' , ''oh you don't know him?'' ''see this is why we don't fight and accept Wilder's conditions''.... Lmao...

Eddie, your boy didn't have the WBC belt, no one f**** cares about that, stop fooling around and make the fight. But they didn't. They both f***** up.

That's the difference between Fury and AJ, Fury accepted Wilder's conditions, and he fought with him twice in USA, first he won but he got robbed, he didn't cry and he never made that a big problem while he could've easily and no one would say anything about it, then what he did? Ok, if you have a biased judge, then I will knock your ass in USA and no judge will save your ass again, that's exactly what Fury did. That's how you can be the undisputed champion, winning under unfair conditions without whinning about the contracts or the biased judges.

I am %100 million percent sure that even if AJ would accepted Wilder's offer (he wouldn't anyway) to fight in USA with 50/50 contract, and if AJ got robbed by a biased judge and leave the fight with a draw, then he would cry about it all the time and he would never fight with Wilder in USA with 50/50 contract again.

That's the difference between Fury and AJ, no crying, no making excuses, just old school ass whooping and winning the belt.

Joshua did beat 2 reigning champions (granted one was a bit sh!t) and the vacant belt he won was against the best heavyweight of the previous decade.

Also none of the four main belts are really seen as better than the others nowadays, so not sure why you claim the WBC and WBA are the most important.

I do agree that both sides are to blame for the AJ/Wilder fight not happening.
I don't believe either fighter was ducking. It seemed to me that the two teams just don't like each other very much and were refusing to give an inch.

[Finkel]

I myself am often critical of Joshua on this forum, but that post is an absolute dumpster fire of nonsense.


Wilder doesn't even have the WBC title, and he is still blocking the undisputed fight.
No one outside of Wilder's deluded hardcore fans actively wants to see the third Fury fight next.

It's always been about positioning Wilder to make as much money as possible in an undisputed fight. And it all came crashing down like a house of cards. Lou Dibella must be laughing his tits off.

Schadenfreude It's a hell of a thing

It looks like you didn't read my post because I was talking about Wilder's past career, not right now.

I read it, unfortunately.
Every paragraph consisted of false equivalencies, double standards, or just straight up claims based on some kind of alternate reality.

E.g. trying to equate when Joshua fought Breazeale (1st defence) with that of Wilder (9th) to show they are both to blame for holding up unification.

[pound per pound]

his reign, title run whatever you call it. He was a protected fighter, his resume is one of the worst if not the worst from any title holder in the HW division in a long time.

he only fought 5 top 10 guys... Stiverne first time, Old ass Ortiz twice and Fury twice. (actually don't think Fury was even ranked for the first fight) and Ortiz was essentially schooling him in both fights until he got tired. and of course got schooled by Fury, arguably twice.The only elite fighter he has ever fought

Remember that the first Fury fight was a cherry pick, Wilder knew Fury had 3 years ring rust coming from depression, drug addiction, 400lbs and looked like poo in his two comeback fights. allegedly had to literally call/convince Shelly Finkel that Fury was "done" and coming for one last pay day. His career seems like it can easily be described as manufactured

No career is a sham, unless it had fixed fights. Wilder was very carefully managed, and used drug tests as his weapon to postpone matches with Ortiz until he was too old, and to side step Povektin all together.

If Jerry Cooney didn't fight Larry Holmes and picked on the un-ranked for title defenses, he might have had a career like Wilder.

[pound per pound]

his reign, title run whatever you call it. He was a protected fighter, his resume is one of the worst if not the worst from any title holder in the HW division in a long time.

he only fought 5 top 10 guys... Stiverne first time, Old ass Ortiz twice and Fury twice. (actually don't think Fury was even ranked for the first fight) and Ortiz was essentially schooling him in both fights until he got tired. and of course got schooled by Fury, arguably twice.The only elite fighter he has ever fought

Remember that the first Fury fight was a cherry pick, Wilder knew Fury had 3 years ring rust coming from depression, drug addiction, 400lbs and looked like poo in his two comeback fights. allegedly had to literally call/convince Shelly Finkel that Fury was "done" and coming for one last pay day. His career seems like it can easily be described as manufactured

No career is a sham, unless it had fixed fights. Wilder was very carefully managed, and used drug tests as his weapon to postpone matches with Ortiz until he was too old, and to side step Povektin all together.

If Jerry Cooney didn't fight Larry Holmes and picked on the un-ranked for title defenses, he might have had a career like Wilder.

[Finkel]

his reign, title run whatever you call it. He was a protected fighter, his resume is one of the worst if not the worst from any title holder in the HW division in a long time.

he only fought 5 top 10 guys... Stiverne first time, Old ass Ortiz twice and Fury twice. (actually don't think Fury was even ranked for the first fight) and Ortiz was essentially schooling him in both fights until he got tired. and of course got schooled by Fury, arguably twice.The only elite fighter he has ever fought

Remember that the first Fury fight was a cherry pick, Wilder knew Fury had 3 years ring rust coming from depression, drug addiction, 400lbs and looked like poo in his two comeback fights. allegedly had to literally call/convince Shelly Finkel that Fury was "done" and coming for one last pay day. His career seems like it can easily be described as manufactured

No career is a sham, unless it had fixed fights. Wilder was very carefully managed, and used drug tests as his weapon to postpone matches with Ortiz until he was too old, and to side step Povektin all together.

If Jerry Cooney didn't fight Larry Holmes and picked on the un-ranked for title defenses, he might have had a career like Wilder.

What constitutes fixing a fight? Is there a spectrum?
Is it one fighter takes a dive?
Or does say having referees, ring doctors, and judges acting outside of normal/reasonable parameters again and again constitute enough a pattern to say that fights are being fixed?