Was/Is Wilder's career essentially a sham?

[Tevfik1907]

I read it, unfortunately.
Every paragraph consisted of false equivalencies, double standards, or just straight up claims based on some kind of alternate reality.

Not only you didn't read, and now you're lying

If you read it, you wouldn't say this nonsense;

Wilder doesn't even have the WBC title, and he is still blocking the undisputed fight.

What is this guy even talking about?

I never talk about current Wilder.

Joshua did beat 2 reigning champions (granted one was a bit sh!t) and the vacant belt he won was against the best heavyweight of the previous decade.

Also none of the four main belts are really seen as better than the others nowadays, so not sure why you claim the WBC and WBA are the most important.

I do agree that both sides are to blame for the AJ/Wilder fight not happening.
I don't believe either fighter was ducking. It seemed to me that the two teams just don't like each other very much and were refusing to give an inch.

Fury already beat Klitschko in 2015, he was no longer the reigning champion. They fought for the vacant belt.

And Joseph Parker had 2 WBO title defense, he wasn't a long reigning champion, plus his victory against Ruiz was not satisfying, people said Ruiz won that fight so Joseph Parker's championship was in doubt, and WBO is not a major belt.

AJ fought no reigning champion.

WBC and WBA are the oldest belts with a decent boxing history.

WBO and IBF are made up belts which came only after 1980s.

If Wilder is actually a ''sham'' then AJ is the one to blame with. Because he didn't really want that fight to happen for years, if he wanted he would fight with Wilder. Perhaps he was afraid to get his ass kicked like Ruiz kicked his ass? Who knows.

But instead we've this kind of threads from AJ fanboys, who are trying to slander Wilder all the time. I am really sick of AJ fanboys, and I don't even like Wilder.

[ewenhay]

To be fair Joshua has beaten 3 reigning champs.


But none are called Klitschko. And one of them was only because he'd just lost to him.


Martin, Parker and Ruiz.

[Tevfik1907]

To be fair Joshua has beaten 3 reigning champs.


But none are called Klitschko. And one of them was only because he'd just lost to him.


Martin, Parker and Ruiz.

Martin just won a vacant IBF belt, he had 0 title defense, it means nothing.

Parker won a vacant WBO belt against Ruiz with a controversial decision, and had only 2 weak title defenses.

He lost to Ruiz by KO.

Then he take it back by decision when Ruiz was fat and not trained well.

He beat no real champion. Just like Wilder.

[keirw]

I read it, unfortunately.
Every paragraph consisted of false equivalencies, double standards, or just straight up claims based on some kind of alternate reality.

Not only you didn't read, and now you're lying

If you read it, you wouldn't say this nonsense;

Wilder doesn't even have the WBC title, and he is still blocking the undisputed fight.

What is this guy even talking about?

I never talk about current Wilder.

Joshua did beat 2 reigning champions (granted one was a bit sh!t) and the vacant belt he won was against the best heavyweight of the previous decade.

Also none of the four main belts are really seen as better than the others nowadays, so not sure why you claim the WBC and WBA are the most important.

I do agree that both sides are to blame for the AJ/Wilder fight not happening.
I don't believe either fighter was ducking. It seemed to me that the two teams just don't like each other very much and were refusing to give an inch.

Fury already beat Klitschko in 2015, he was no longer the reigning champion. They fought for the vacant belt.

And Joseph Parker had 2 WBO title defense, he wasn't a long reigning champion, plus his victory against Ruiz was not satisfying, people said Ruiz won that fight so Joseph Parker's championship was in doubt, and WBO is not a major belt.

AJ fought no reigning champion.

WBC and WBA are the oldest belts with a decent boxing history.

WBO and IBF are made up belts which came only after 1980s.

If Wilder is actually a ''sham'' then AJ is the one to blame with. Because he didn't really want that fight to happen for years, if he wanted he would fight with Wilder. Perhaps he was afraid to get his ass kicked like Ruiz kicked his ass? Who knows.

But instead we've this kind of threads from AJ fanboys, who are trying to slander Wilder all the time. I am really sick of AJ fanboys, and I don't even like Wilder.

Sorry I was wrong, AJ didn't beat 2 reigning champs, he actually beat 3

I'm not a massive AJ fan boy, I do feel that he is a better fighter than Wilder and has beaten a higher calibre of opposition.

Both AJ and Wilder receive a lot of critisism, I just feel that Wilder's critisism is more justified.

Wilder shouting his mouth off on social media about 50 million dollars whilst his team were simultaniously refusing meetings didn't help the fight get made at all.

DAZN and Hearn tried to make the fight but were both turned down as Wilder's team were not happy with the deal. Hearn constantly mocking Finkel didn't help matters either.

As it happens both men have gone on to lose and will never look as formidable as they once did.

Although it would still be a huge fight if they ever got it on in the future, the fight will never be as big as it would have been had they fought last summer.

Both side need to share some of the blame in this.

[ewenhay]

To be fair Joshua has beaten 3 reigning champs.


But none are called Klitschko. And one of them was only because he'd just lost to him.


Martin, Parker and Ruiz.

Martin just won a vacant IBF belt, he had 0 title defense, it means nothing.

Parker won a vacant WBO belt against Ruiz with a controversial decision, and had only 2 weak title defenses.

He lost to Ruiz by KO.

Then he take it back by decision when Ruiz was fat and not trained well.

He beat no real champion. Just like Wilder.

I'm not saying it's a great list.

In fact it isn't. Martin sold his belt. Parker was average and wasn't allowed to fight in close. Ruiz turned up in dreadful condition.

But he beat three reigning champions.

[ewenhay]

Martin just won a vacant IBF belt, he had 0 title defense, it means nothing.

Parker won a vacant WBO belt against Ruiz with a controversial decision, and had only 2 weak title defenses.

He lost to Ruiz by KO.

Then he take it back by decision when Ruiz was fat and not trained well.

He beat no real champion. Just like Wilder.

I'm not saying it's a great list.

In fact it isn't. Martin sold his belt. Parker was average and wasn't allowed to fight in close. Ruiz turned up in dreadful condition.

But he beat three reigning champions.

I think Fury and Wilder both deal with Joshua pretty easily.

[Tony1244]

He's no Ali, Louis, or Lewis, but he's more than Earnie Shavers.

Calling his career "a sham" is too ridiculous for debate. So everyone is a sham if they aren't top 10 of all time in their division?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Good post! No one would argue that Deontay Wilder has not been very carefully guided through his career - despite the one glaring $$ mistake ie the failure to make the AJ fight.

So whilst it's been generally good for Wilder and good for his backers - its not been necessarily good for the fans. He could and probably should have fought Joshua, Parker, Whyte, Ruiz etc.

Any of these fights could have been classics, but all alas were deemed too big a gamble for his many backers. Today's promoters are odds players and extremely hesitant to attempt any Ali/Tyson-like trajectory through their division. Unlike Angelo Dundee or Cus D'Amato they prefer instead to attempt to carefully tiptoe their charges through what they deem is the 'safest' route to megabucks.

Some of them are prepared to use any means possible to assist the safest passage.

Deontay so far has been willing to listen carefully to his backers but he needs to remember that he employs them and not the other way round.

There's still time for Deontay Wilder to put it right but he needs to start work fast. He can make a great start by flattening Fury in their rematch and then all the doors will re-open.

Part of me wants to say that it's a mistake to go right after Fury again, but you have to respect the fact that he wants a tough fight. I can't help but think as fans we should appreciate when fighters do that, or are allowed to do that.

I think it's a cynical cash out by his backers.

[punchoutsb]

Obviously not a sham, but it was carefully guided and he will be remembered as more of a "what if?" than anything and he'll have no one to blame but himself.

I still think he would smash Whyte, Parker, and I'd favor him against AJ. Instead his entire career is based almost entirely around beating an ancient Ortiz twice, who himself had build a fearsome reputation among fans without ever really beating anyone noteworthy.

On his night Wilder's power can bail him out against anyone but Fury it seems. However, feasting on tomato cans for 95% of his career won't have done much for his legacy. Sadly for him, the division is so terrible he won't be able to earn his way out of the position he put himself in. Even fighting some tough journeymen on the way up would have helped in the long run.

With all that being said, given Wilders actual in-ring ability, he's had a marvelous career. That power will always be remembered.

[margaret thatcher]

Obviously not a sham, but it was carefully guided and he will be remembered as more of a "what if?" than anything and he'll have no one to blame but himself.

I still think he would smash Whyte, Parker, and I'd favor him against AJ. Instead his entire career is based almost entirely around beating an ancient Ortiz twice, who himself had build a fearsome reputation among fans without ever really beating anyone noteworthy.

On his night Wilder's power can bail him out against anyone but Fury it seems. However, feasting on tomato cans for 95% of his career won't have done much for his legacy. Sadly for him, the division is so terrible he won't be able to earn his way out of the position he put himself in. Even fighting some tough journeymen on the way up would have helped in the long run.

With all that being said, given Wilders actual in-ring ability, he's had a marvelous career. That power will always be remembered.

Well, I don't really get that last seentance when you think he'd beat all those guys--I assume it includes all but Fury too. I'd say then that he has plenty of in-ring ability, and that if he is really that good than he's clearly underachieved, unless you just mean he's financially done well

[margaret thatcher]

He's no Ali, Louis, or Lewis, but he's more than Earnie Shavers.

Calling his career "a sham" is too ridiculous for debate. So everyone is a sham if they aren't top 10 of all time in their division?

After he beat Lou Ortiz you picked him to KO prime Holyfield, Bowe, and Louis---I'd say if everyone was rating him as an ATG elite level HW in that manner then he'd seem more like a sham, but the reality is he overachieved relative to what the majority predicted I think. And especially coming up early on as a prospect he just looked awful at times--I was sure he'd get starched pretty quickly vs world/fringe world level.

Even if he doesn't get another decent result, his career has been solid. Obviously more quantity than quality and he doesn't have much value on his record in terms of historical ratings vs other top champs of different eras, but still a top 5 hw for a minimum of 5 years and will always be remembered for his power. Tons only stick around for a year or two near the top or look big hitters but then the power doesn't carry up the levels; him on the other hand just broke the levels (and his own hands lol)

F@CK vitali and his fake power HW KO record, Deontay brings the real heat

[Tony1244]

He's no Ali, Louis, or Lewis, but he's more than Earnie Shavers.

Calling his career "a sham" is too ridiculous for debate. So everyone is a sham if they aren't top 10 of all time in their division?

After he beat Lou Ortiz you picked him to KO prime Holyfield, Bowe, and Louis---I'd say if everyone was rating him as an ATG elite level HW in that manner then he'd seem more like a sham, but the reality is he overachieved relative to what the majority predicted I think. And especially coming up early on as a prospect he just looked awful at times--I was sure he'd get starched pretty quickly vs world/fringe world level.

Even if he doesn't get another decent result, his career has been solid. Obviously more quantity than quality and he doesn't have much value on his record in terms of historical ratings vs other top champs of different eras, but still a top 5 hw for a minimum of 5 years and will always be remembered for his power. Tons only stick around for a year or two near the top or look big hitters but then the power doesn't carry up the levels; him on the other hand just broke the levels (and his own hands lol)

F@CK vitali and his fake power HW KO record, Deontay brings the real heat

I don't remember picking him over those guys. It's conceivable he could KO them if he landed right.

Basically agree. Very entertaining career thus far, even though his first few dozen opponents make Bobick's resume look HOF.

[margaret thatcher]

You did, I can pull it out if you want, but I don't have to

Basically though, hardly any one was saying that , Wilder has been one of the most hated on fighters for years. It's kinda like when people call a guy overrated, but no one rates him

Wilder is one of the 'did better than you expected' cases for me eaisily. Man he looked liked fragile bambi legged trash moving up and at that point had never shown his power would work at higher levels. The matchmaking of utter garbage like Jess Oltamns and random guys brought up from mw after 10 years of inactivity made it look for sure like something was being protected. But he kept on winning , has stuck around as a top end hw of the era for at least 5 years now, and proved to be way tougher than I thought he would be

[ewenhay]

Most folks I reckon would have him favourite against at least half of the current top ten.

Which categorically rules out any talk of his career being a sham

[Tony1244]

I definitely do not rank him higher than Joe Louis on an all time scale. Sure, it's conceivable the Bronze Bomber could stop the Brown Bomber, Max Schmeling did, but I have Louis as #2 all time HW after Ali.

Holyfield and Bowe had inconsistent careers, so who know what would have happened there? Obviously, Bowe and Holy have eons more talent.

[punchoutsb]

Obviously not a sham, but it was carefully guided and he will be remembered as more of a "what if?" than anything and he'll have no one to blame but himself.

I still think he would smash Whyte, Parker, and I'd favor him against AJ. Instead his entire career is based almost entirely around beating an ancient Ortiz twice, who himself had build a fearsome reputation among fans without ever really beating anyone noteworthy.

On his night Wilder's power can bail him out against anyone but Fury it seems. However, feasting on tomato cans for 95% of his career won't have done much for his legacy. Sadly for him, the division is so terrible he won't be able to earn his way out of the position he put himself in. Even fighting some tough journeymen on the way up would have helped in the long run.

With all that being said, given Wilders actual in-ring ability, he's had a marvelous career. That power will always be remembered.

Well, I don't really get that last seentance when you think he'd beat all those guys--I assume it includes all but Fury too. I'd say then that he has plenty of in-ring ability, and that if he is really that good than he's clearly underachieved, unless you just mean he's financially done well

It took him about 40 fights to learn to jab. He windmills punches and picks his feet up when he throws. His power allowed him to become a 5 year HW champion with multiple successful defenses. If he didn't have his power I doubt he'd have ever cracked the top 10-15.

That doesn't change the fact that I think he'd smash Whyte, Parker, or AJ. It's his power that beats those three, not exceptional skills. Pretty self explanatory really.

[margaret thatcher]

Power is in-ring ability, if you have him beating all those guys with his ability then it doesn't really seem like a case of him achieving wonders for his ability when you look at who he actually beat, more like well he coulda had a lot more good wins , over the likes of those guys, but didn't. AJ, Whyte, Parker--all could arguably be his best win and beating all 3 would put him in a different sphere of accomplishment from what he is now.

[punchoutsb]

Power is one aspect of in-ring ability. In my opinion the only one Wilder really has at an elite level.

Would Wilder have achieved what he did without his power? He's had a great career for someone with such limited boxing ability, I would have thought that was fairly obvious.

*edit* Ok it looks like you keep adding to your post...Wilder could have accomplished more than he did had he actually taken some risks. He was protected, and his paper thin resume shows it. In reality the upper echelon of HW's today suck so badly that his power would have likely saw him through against a lot of other top guys. Given his lack of skills, he's accomplished a lot more than one would have expected. Given the lack of confidence from either he or his team he's accomplished a lot less than he probably could have.

[margaret thatcher]

When he's good enough , for whatever reason, that he apparently beats all these guys who would be elite wins for him, but never did, it seems if anything like a case of underachieving.

[punchoutsb]

When he's good enough , for whatever reason, that he apparently beats all these guys who would be elite wins for him, but never did, it seems if anything like a case of underachieving.

You also seem to be missing the fact that Whyte and Parker suck, and AJ is a bodybuilder with average whiskers.

I'd take Pulev over Wilder.

[margaret thatcher]

I made no comment on their absolute ability really, just in comparison to who he has beaten. They would obviously be among his absolute best wins.

If Wilder would beat all sorts of guys like that, he's more of an underachiever considering titty dom and Stiv are probabl in his top 3 wins

[punchoutsb]

Ortiz is probably in his top three somewhere...

[margaret thatcher]

Sure, he's obviously his best win, don't think it really needs stating, but my goodness the other contenders from that are unimpressive, say what you want about AJ, Whyte, and Parker, but beating them would easily take his accomplishments to the next level. If you think he has the in ring ability that he would beat them all, and presumably many other contenders, certainly he has underachieved for whatever reason and regardless of his limitations he has not accomplished even close to what his ability would have allowed him too.

just doesn't seem like a case in that instance to act like he's achieved wonderfully for his ability. that's the type of career where you wish you had seen more from the guy

[margaret thatcher]

Imagine how big it would've been if Wilder had KTFO Josh in an undefeated, undisputed showdown

As the great Don John Trump would say, yuge

[punchoutsb]

Sure, he's obviously his best win, don't think it really needs stating, but my goodness the other contenders from that are unimpressive, say what you want about AJ, Whyte, and Parker, but beating them would easily take his accomplishments to the next level. If you think he has the in ring ability that he would beat them all, and presumably many other contenders, certainly he has underachieved for whatever reason and regardless of his limitations he has not accomplished even close to what his ability would have allowed him too.

just doesn't seem like a case in that instance to act like he's achieved wonderfully for his ability. that's the type of career where you wish you had seen more from the guy

Again, power is one piece of in-ring ability. and one of the few that typically can't be massively changed through training. He doesn't have particularly good stamina, not great footwork, poor fundamentals, doesn't have a great chin, apparently doesn't absorb body blows well, doesn't move well, doesn't have high ring IQ. Aside from Stiverne 1, his power has been the only factor of every single career win he's notched. Given that, he's accomplished more than a one trick pony ever should have.