Is it time for super heavyweight division?

[gilgamesh]

All Jr and super divisions must be permanently abolished.

Having a weight division every 3 to 5 pounds is either mental retardation or corruption.

Corruption. It's all about sanctioning fees.

Whatever other reason they gave for forming those weight classes is bullsh*t.

That's why most of them have come along during the proliferation of all the title orgs.

Several of these divisions aren't very old.

Jr. Lightweight and Jr. Welterweight I believe existed in the 1940's or thereabouts, and then ceased to exist for another 20 or 30 years until being brought back.

Some guys would still fight weighing 155 or whatever back then. It just was a Middleweight bout.

[gilgamesh]

or is just goofs like you with no respect for the sport.

"Goofs" "No respect for the sport" "Go to hell". Sounds like someone needs to go to his local gym to prove his greatness in the ring.

Trying to start a flame war or something?

You certainly are escalating any arguement here telling people these things, making fun of them and calling them names from behind the heroic keyboard. Are threats the next step?

I don't threaten people online or challenge them to fights.

I do however mock them if I feel like their idea is incredibly stupid or as in this case a direct insult to the World's greatest sport.

I would be pretty much fighting mad if somebody ever formed a Super Heavyweight or Super Cruiserweight division. Problem is, there'd be nobody to fight.

Just a handful of people responsible for the sports ruin.

[Heretic]

Except most cruiserweights weigh more than 200 pounds. You are ignoring the reality of the situation.

The only time Haye could maybe not have made the CW limit is after he retired and put on a bunch of extra weight. When he fought Wlad he weighed 210 and could easily have made CW.

Right now the only fighters you could successfully argue are getting screwed are the handful who naturally weigh in the 195-200 range, who realistically can't make the LHW limit but may be outsized by many CWs. But in practice this is not such a huge problem because most guys who weigh around 220 and are good enough to compete at HW do so.

A lot of guys these days put on extra weight just to put on extra weight too.

It's an overrated advantage big time.

Like you were mentioning if a guy is naturally 190 or 195 pounds or so. I personally would advise him to compete weighing that, and get the best out of himself.

Putting on extra 5 pounds just because it's the maximum limit of the weight class even though it's not necessarily making you any stronger or better isn't a benefit.

A good example of this. We've seen quite a few guys who kiled themselves to make say 140 for quite a while, and then when they moved up to 147 and made weight more comfortably they performed way better.

Basically I think the guy that's making weight comfortably, and is in his best condition will be better served than the guy that's cutting massive amounts of weight so that he can gain 10 to 20 pounds overnight for the perceived size advantage.

Guy that is naturally 190-195 is pretty much the perfect size... For fight at light heavyweight.

[margaret thatcher]

Ya even LHWs weigh 190 these days, Joe Smith was vs Sully Barrera

Joe Smith, 6'1 190....hey, it's the next Dempsey or Johnson!!

[Heretic]

Valuev is actually pretty good example of why size matters in boxing. He started boxing late and still did pretty well for himself.

The career is actually pretty similar with Wilders. Mostly fabricated record. Always the favor on judges and referees eyes. It remains to be seen if Wilder can achieve the caliber of scalps that Valuev was able to rack up on hes record.

I guess there is nobody around to claim that Valuev accomplished what he did by having great boxing skills.

Miller is another example where it is more size and less skills that pay the bills

[Heretic]

*sigh

Ok lets go over this once again...

The original poster claimed that we need another weight class because the weight difference in HW is getting out of hand.

Now the weight differences are big because guys that are naturally the cruiser size move into HW.

So if the weight difference is a big problem then the guys should stay at the weight they belong to. Another weight class is not needed.

Making super heavy would not change anything. Then the smaller guys would simply fight at that weight class if that's where the money is. It would change nothing.

I have never said that guys like Wilder and Holyfield should not fight at HW. That's where the money and prestige has always been. If they feel like they can compete above their natural weight class then that's probably what they should do.

I have never heard Wilde or Holyfield complain about the weight differences

Ok, then it looks like we're on the same page. What's with all the devil worship stuff?

It just looked like you were pulling an EO lecture earlier and no it's not worth C & P ing. It's there to see.

[Enlightened-One]

Valuev is actually pretty good example of why size matters in boxing. He started boxing late and still did pretty well for himself

That’s actually an excellent point.

Nikolay Valuev started boxing really late, at the age of twenty.

His first ever fight was his professional debut.

And despite his pugilistic technique being rather poor, he was a massive overachiever, because:

• He only ever tasted defeat twice as a professional

• He became the WBA World Heavyweight Champion (competing in three title fights)

• Fought five former world champions (David Haye, Evander Holyfield, John Ruiz, Ruslan Chagaev, Siarhei Liakhovich), two of which are either current or future Hall-of-Famers

That’s such a great example of size really mattering!

[Tony1244]

Valuev is actually pretty good example of why size matters in boxing. He started boxing late and still did pretty well for himself

That’s actually an excellent point.

Nikolay Valuev started boxing really late, at the age of twenty.

His first ever fight was his professional debut.

And despite his pugilistic technique being rather poor, he was a massive overachiever, because:

• He only ever tasted defeat twice as a professional

• He became the WBA World Heavyweight Champion (competing in three title fights)

• Fought five former world champions (David Haye, Evander Holyfield, John Ruiz, Ruslan Chagaev, Siarhei Liakhovich), two of which are either current or future Hall-of-Famers

That’s such a great example of size really mattering!

Yeah, Valuev is a great example. He was Lerch from The Adam's family on NyQuil. Had 100 Pounds over Haye and still lost.

We need a super duper HW title for those who sleepwalk over 280!

[Enlightened-One]

That’s actually an excellent point.

Nikolay Valuev started boxing really late, at the age of twenty.

His first ever fight was his professional debut.

And despite his pugilistic technique being rather poor, he was a massive overachiever, because:

• He only ever tasted defeat twice as a professional

• He became the WBA World Heavyweight Champion (competing in three title fights)

• Fought five former world champions (David Haye, Evander Holyfield, John Ruiz, Ruslan Chagaev, Siarhei Liakhovich), two of which are either current or future Hall-of-Famers

That’s such a great example of size really mattering!

Yeah, Valuev is a great example. He was Lerch from The Adam's family on NyQuil. Had 100 Pounds over Haye and still lost.

We need a super duper HW title for those who sleepwalk over 280!

The Valuev-Haye bout was incredibly close. The decision was razon thin. Even the British Sky Sports weren’t sure who won that bout.

Anyway, you're missing the point.

Valuev wasn't a skilful fighter, but despite that, he was an overachiever that enjoyed considerable success even though he clearly lacked talent.

And what do you think the main reason was for him doing so well as a pro?

It doesn’t take a genius to answer that rather simple question, but I’m guessing you’ll do your upmost to avoid providing a truthful and honest response.

[Tony1244]

I would have lost money on the corrupt Valuev-Holy fight. Many thought Hunter beat Povetkin. Hunter and Usyk can hold their own against most bigger men. And Wilder has only lost once.

And yet it’s very rare for any heavyweights weighing less than 220lbs to achieve success at world level... at least within the last twenty years or so.

Can you provide the details of five legitimate world heavyweight championship bouts where the victor weighed less than 220lbs during the last decade?

During the last decade is a very short period of time especially considering how infrequently the top fighters fight nowadays. Wilder certainly wasn't more impressive at 226 than he was at 212. Same can be said of Holmes and Ali if you go back a little further.

Valuev is the poster child of why size doesn't matter.

[Tony1244]

Yeah, Valuev is a great example. He was Lerch from The Adam's family on NyQuil. Had 100 Pounds over Haye and still lost.

We need a super duper HW title for those who sleepwalk over 280!

The Valuev-Haye bout was incredibly close. The decision was razon thin. Even the British Sky Sports weren’t sure who won that bout.

Anyway, you're missing the point.

Valuev wasn't a skilful fighter, but despite that, he was an overachiever that enjoyed considerable success even though he clearly lacked talent.

And what do you think the main reason was for him doing so well as a pro?

It doesn’t take a genius to answer that rather simple question, but I’m guessing you’ll do your upmost to avoid providing a truthful and honest response.

Valuev SUCKED. Next.....

[Enlightened-One]

And yet it’s very rare for any heavyweights weighing less than 220lbs to achieve success at world level... at least within the last twenty years or so.

Can you provide the details of five legitimate world heavyweight championship bouts where the victor weighed less than 220lbs during the last decade?

During the last decade is a very short period of time especially considering how infrequently the top fighters fight nowadays.

So let me get this straight, you can’t answer a simple question?

WBA = 30 title bouts
WBC = 19 title bouts
IBF = 21 title bouts
WBO = 18 title bouts

And for the record, a decade is a long time.

Wilder certainly wasn't more impressive at 226 than he was at 212. Same can be said of Holmes and Ali if you go back a little further.

Ali & Holmes were better the lighter they were.

Wilder is a difficult one to gauge, because he rarely wins rounds - he just lands that one hitter quitter. So your opinion on this is irrelevant.

Valuev is the poster child of why size doesn't matter.

Valuev didn't have very much skill but yet he enjoyed considerable success in the pro ranks. He was an overachiever, primarily because of his size.

His first fight was his pro debut - so he clearly didn't enjoy a lengthy amateur career to learn the ropes immediately prior to entering the paid ranks.

[Tony1244]

I apologize for my bluntness but after watching, assuming you did watch, Holyfield vs Valuev and Haye vs Valuev, that there needs to be another division for Valuev, you at worst want to destroy boxing, and at best are a complete idiot.

[Enlightened-One]

I apologize for my bluntness but after watching, assuming you did watch, Holyfield vs Valuev and Haye vs Valuev, that there needs to be another division for Valuev, you at worst want to destroy boxing, and at best are a complete idiot.

Both the Valuev-Holyfield and Valuev-Haye bouts were highly-competitive affairs, but rather ugly fights to watch. Holyfield just about deserved the decision, whereas the Haye fight could have gone either way.

Valuev overachieved in both of those bouts though, but his sheer size enabled him to be competitive against fighters that were more talented, more experienced and more skilful.

And I am not asking for a super heavyweight division. I am actually against the idea.

But you're simply a wind-up merchant, aren't you? Either that or blatantly illiterate. I've already made my thoughts clear on the matter.

Here’s a novel idea… why don’t challenge me on an opinion I actually hold rather than asking me to defend your fictional nonsense?

[Tony1244]

I apologize for my bluntness but after watching, assuming you did watch, Holyfield vs Valuev and Haye vs Valuev, that there needs to be another division for Valuev, you at worst want to destroy boxing, and at best are a complete idiot.

Both the Valuev-Holyfield and Valuev-Haye bouts were highly-competitive affairs, but rather ugly fights to watch. Holyfield just about deserved the decision, whereas the Haye fight could have gone either way.

Valuev overachieved in both of those bouts though, but his sheer size enabled him to be competitive against fighters that were more talented, more experienced and more skilful.

And I am not asking for a super heavyweight division. I am actually against the idea.

But you're simply a wind-up merchant, aren't you? Either that or blatantly illiterate. I've already made my thoughts clear on the matter.

Here’s a novel idea… why don’t challenge me on an opinion I actually hold rather than asking me to defend your fictional nonsense?

I don't know exactly what a wind up merchant is, but if it's good, I'm that.

After you favored A. Ruiz over Liston, simply due to obesity, my curiosity concerning your opinions is simply nonexistent.

[oogiebe]

Do you just use the same lines each and every time you post? You seem very repetitive in your responses. Just saying.

I copy and paste a lot of my responses, because this forum can occasionally be a bit like groundhog day.

If the same topics, insults and dubious debating tactics are constantly being recycled at regular intervals, then why on earth would I expend considerable effort on providing unique responses?

If I’m placed in the same situations over-and-over again, then why should anyone expect my reactions to vary?

As the old adage goes: “Insanity is doing the same thing, over-and-over again, but expecting different results.”

Therefore, are you insane?

Describes you perfectly. DIdn't you just say that?

[Tony1244]

This thread should be locked with a huge font that says

NO NEVER

[oogiebe]

This thread should be locked with a huge font that says

NO NEVER

I'm convinced that EO is a creation of BoxRec in order to get more views, cause you can't make this shite up.

[Enlightened-One]

This thread should be locked with a huge font that says

NO NEVER

I'm convinced that EO is a creation of BoxRec in order to get more views, cause you can't make this shite up.

It's clear you guys aren't really interested in facts, stats, evidence or anything that doesn't adhere to your preferred perception of reality.

[oogiebe]

I'm convinced that EO is a creation of BoxRec in order to get more views, cause you can't make this shite up.

It's clear you guys aren't really interested in facts, stats, evidence or anything that doesn't adhere to your preferred perception of reality.

It's clear we aren't interested in you. Beyond entertainment.

[Paci]

Reality is that boxingfans have been pissed since the orgs started to add weights since 80s or even 70s.

It smells more like a cashgrab then anything for the orgs to milk more money out of the sport. Not strange that we have so many minor weights with 2 or 4 pounds between them then jumping up to Superwelter and you see about 8 to 7 or 25 pounds when you start claiming. It is an leftover from milking the asian market back in the day. Just saying.

[gilgamesh]

I'm convinced that EO is a creation of BoxRec in order to get more views, cause you can't make this shite up.

It's clear you guys aren't really interested in facts, stats, evidence or anything that doesn't adhere to your preferred perception of reality.

It's clear you're only interested in sh*tting on the sports great history, and pissing on the grave of every Legend that came before your time.

[gilgamesh]

Reality is that boxingfans have been pissed since the orgs started to add weights since 80s or even 70s.

It smells more like a cashgrab then anything for the orgs to milk more money out of the sport. Not strange that we have so many minor weights with 2 or 4 pounds between them then jumping up to Superwelter and you see about 8 to 7 or 25 pounds when you start claiming. It is an leftover from milking the asian market back in the day. Just saying.

Most combat sports don't even bother with 10 weight classes right?

In MMA as far as I know there is Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight, Welterweight, Lightweight, Featherweight, Bantamweight and Flyweight, mostly in Asia.

That's 8 weight classes.

If I'm not mistaken Kickboxing only has the same 8 weight classes

With Boxing weight classes I wouldn't mind keeping Strawweight and Cruiserweight for the particularly undersized guys or particularly big Light Heavyweights.

That being said, I think if somebody is 189 or 190 pounds, and WANTS to compete as a Heavyweight, they should be allowed to.

[Paci]

Reality is that boxingfans have been pissed since the orgs started to add weights since 80s or even 70s.

It smells more like a cashgrab then anything for the orgs to milk more money out of the sport. Not strange that we have so many minor weights with 2 or 4 pounds between them then jumping up to Superwelter and you see about 8 to 7 or 25 pounds when you start claiming. It is an leftover from milking the asian market back in the day. Just saying.

Most combat sports don't even bother with 10 weight classes right?

In MMA as far as I know there is Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight, Welterweight, Lightweight, Featherweight, Bantamweight and Flyweight, mostly in Asia.

That's 8 weight classes.

If I'm not mistaken Kickboxing only has the same 8 weight classes

With Boxing weight classes I wouldn't mind keeping Strawweight and Cruiserweight for the particularly undersized guys or particularly big Light Heavyweights.

That being said, I think if somebody is 189 or 190 pounds, and WANTS to compete as a Heavyweight, they should be allowed to.

Hahahah! Yeah! Why not?

And thought about how the weightclasses do effect the rating with having guys spread out over at least 3 weights in the lower weights. Ain't that big of a problem going from welter and up.

[gilgamesh]

Hell when Roy Jones won his WBA title from John Ruiz he entered the bout weighing 193.

The Cruiserweight division was moved up to 200 about 5 years or so after that.

So unless it ever changes back, Roy will be the last Heavyweight Titleholder under 200 pounds, but it's ironic that in the modern era where so many act as if the undersized guys just can't possibly compete anymore that Roy achieved it in the last 20 years while not even weighing the current Cruiserweight limit.