Off Topic : France will play WC Finals !!

E · Post by E » 06 Jul 2006, 19:21

Raff The Frenchman wrote:somebody who defines himself, his belonging by his race/religious class...

you consider yourself as white/christian and despite belonging to the french country, despite France has nearly half of its population from imigration, despite there are millions of arab/black french people, because the football team has not enough white people you don't feel it represents you...

thats why you are a racist...im not a racist because i don't define myself as white, but as human, and as french...i don't care if Zidane is arab, i don't care if Henry or Vieira are black, they were born in France, they speak french, they read french, they eat french, they buy french, they love France, their country, and they'll win for all the french, they are proud to be french...

therefore they represent France and im proud to have them represent France on the football stadium

You ar eidealistic, but very naive.

"they speak french, they read french, they eat french, they buy french, they love France, their country, and they'll win for all the french, they are proud to be french..."

REally???? How do you know this - doyou know them personally? Have you asked them? Or is this just a case of wishful thinking?

Raff The Frenchman · Post by **Raff The Frenchman** » 07 Jul 2006, 03:15

from what they all show on TV yes, thats what they are...after that, behind TV, you can never know, but there again its the same thing for every french people including the white...you can't just judge somebody of not representing France's values just because he is black or arab...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Jul 2006, 04:57

E wrote:
Raff The Frenchman wrote:somebody who defines himself, his belonging by his race/religious class...

you consider yourself as white/christian and despite belonging to the french country, despite France has nearly half of its population from imigration, despite there are millions of arab/black french people, because the football team has not enough white people you don't feel it represents you...

thats why you are a racist...im not a racist because i don't define myself as white, but as human, and as french...i don't care if Zidane is arab, i don't care if Henry or Vieira are black, they were born in France, they speak french, they read french, they eat french, they buy french, they love France, their country, and they'll win for all the french, they are proud to be french...

therefore they represent France and im proud to have them represent France on the football stadium
You ar eidealistic, but very naive.

"they speak french, they read french, they eat french, they buy french, they love France, their country, and they'll win for all the french, they are proud to be french..."

REally???? How do you know this - doyou know them personally? Have you asked them? Or is this just a case of wishful thinking?

So in other words, you assume that as the majority of them are 'from the colonies' that they don't love their country, or play for their country with pride. Rather a large assumption do YOU know them personally? I'm afraid it seems clear you are a bigot.

E · Post by E » 07 Jul 2006, 06:02

Raff The Frenchman wrote:somebody who defines himself, his belonging by his race/religious class...

Following that logic, you agree that all Muslims are racist, then? As they clearly DO define themselves by their religion.

Raff The Frenchman wrote:i don't define myself as white, but as human, and as french...

Right - let me get this straight: to define yourself as part of a group because that group lives in a certain country and holds a certain passport is acceptable to you; but not to define oneself by what race one belongs to, or by which religious group...

Where is the logic in that???? By your own logic you are being prejudiced against people who are do NOT live in France, which in itself is a bigotry, surely?

Do you not see the faults in your argument? You should either refuse to support any team, town, country, continent as this means prejudice against another group of people; or you should accept that people support different groups / teams for different reasons. The reasons you chose to support a team from a group (IE French nationals) are no different from XYZ supporting a team because there are a lot of Greeks/muslims/redheads/blacks etc etc.

Your current position is inconsistent.

PS for avoidance of doubt I will be supporting Italy in the World Cup final as: 1. I like the football they play 2. They are far more stylish than the French team 3. I like their strip 4. I have Italian antecedents as well as FRench blood 5. The French team do not remind me of the FRance I relate to 6. I have placed a bet on Italy to win 7. France have recently won the world cup and I would rather another country won

Please enlighten me as to which of these reasons (if any) are acceptable to you....

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 07 Jul 2006, 06:51

who did you support when Germany played Brazil in the last final?

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 07 Jul 2006, 07:07

i would suggest to my fellow posters that this is a pointless exercise.
E sounds like a bit of a racist, its true, but i'm not gonna argue with him as i just cant be arsed.
allez le france

JC · Post by JC » 07 Jul 2006, 07:37

Raff The Frenchman wrote:thats why you are a racist...im not a racist because i don't define myself as white, but as human, and as french...i don't care if Zidane is arab, i don't care if Henry or Vieira are black, they were born in France,

Raff, just so I understand the debate was Viera actually born in France? Because I was under the impression he was from Senegal. I thought the contraversy in this area was that Viera, Thuram, etc were not actually born in France. Are they in fact French born just of African decent?

I should add at this point it doesn't matter to me where they were born, I've no problem with Owen Hargreves playing for England or many of the Irish team being born in the UK, I just want to uderstand what is being discussed.

Raff The Frenchman · Post by **Raff The Frenchman** » 07 Jul 2006, 07:40

E wrote:
Raff The Frenchman wrote:somebody who defines himself, his belonging by his race/religious class...
Following that logic, you agree that all Muslims are racist, then? As they clearly DO define themselves by their religion.

Raff The Frenchman wrote:i don't define myself as white, but as human, and as french...
Right - let me get this straight: to define yourself as part of a group because that group lives in a certain country and holds a certain passport is acceptable to you; but not to define oneself by what race one belongs to, or by which religious group...

Where is the logic in that???? By your own logic you are being prejudiced against people who are do NOT live in France, which in itself is a bigotry, surely?

Do you not see the faults in your argument? You should either refuse to support any team, town, country, continent as this means prejudice against another group of people; or you should accept that people support different groups / teams for different reasons. The reasons you chose to support a team from a group (IE French nationals) are no different from XYZ supporting a team because there are a lot of Greeks/muslims/redheads/blacks etc etc.

Your current position is inconsistent.

PS for avoidance of doubt I will be supporting Italy in the World Cup final as: 1. I like the football they play 2. They are far more stylish than the French team 3. I like their strip 4. I have Italian antecedents as well as FRench blood 5. The French team do not remind me of the FRance I relate to 6. I have placed a bet on Italy to win 7. France have recently won the world cup and I would rather another country won

Please enlighten me as to which of these reasons (if any) are acceptable to you....

given what you have written, given your position, all i will tell will not make you understand my logic as your logic is a racist one...

one point i agree with yet is that Muslim are often racists as they define themselves as Muslims before thinking they are french...but that is a part of them, not all of them...once again you are generalizing...

You remember a part of France but this part was an old one, times have changed, now France is a melting pot, like it or not...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Jul 2006, 08:20

By definition, a racist is someone who defines the world around them by racial deliniation. Someone who makes judgesments on others based on religion would be called a zealot perhaps, a bigot or simply prejudiced.

Also, just because someone defines themselves as Muslim, that is not the only means of definition. They might for instance also define themselves by their job, or as a father, by their nationality, or other affiliations. Religion by it's very nature tends to be rather all encompassing, but it does not mean that someone who is muslim, christian, jewish only relates to the world insofar as it touches upon their religious life. Similarly, someone who is African, or Arab, or Chinese, either by birth or extraction can consider themselves part of that country if they live there, and their contribution is as vital as anyone elses in that nation, and over time their input shapes the countries social geography.

People are rather more complex than you would like to believe, the world is not black and white, and people do not have a bar code on the bottom that you can scan and identify them by. Life isn't that simple.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 07 Jul 2006, 08:36

Great against Brazil, not so great last time out ( tho better than the English lightweights, that's for sure ) France are a bit erratic and makes me think the very canny Italians could spoil the French party.

They'll be riding high following that Hollywood ending v Germany.

Stil, I'd like to see the French veterans pull it off.

Looking forward to this Sunday night showdown

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Jul 2006, 08:41

I'd like the French to win myself. I find it hard to support an Italian team full of crooked footballers implicated in match rigging, greedy bastards, not like they were struggling financially is it?

I think Italy are going to win though, they are really fired up at the moment, and playing very well indeed. Only Germany's astute defence kept them at bay for so long, and France only managed to find a goal through a penalty against a fairly medicore portuguese side.

coneye · Post by **coneye** » 07 Jul 2006, 08:49

Englands out so I could'nt give a fack who wins, and too tell the truth until England get a decent manager who is going to tell the English team , who I might add happen to have some of the finest players in the world , GET OUT AND SCORE FACKIN GOALS , then untill that happens England are never gonna win ,

Sven sabotaged englands game , only one man in britain for the job SIR ALEX FERGUSON, yep thats right folks Sir Alex .
He likes too win and he understands if your gonna win you have to score goals

E · Post by E » 07 Jul 2006, 08:50

Lenny Albert wrote:who did you support when Germany played Brazil in the last final?

Ultimately I didn't really care. I think I supported Brazil, but Germany were the underdogs, and I do like to support an underdog. I remember not being exceptionally moved one way or the other.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
People are rather more complex than you would like to believe, the world is not black and white, and people do not have a bar code on the bottom that you can scan and identify them by. Life isn't that simple.

YEs, I couldn't agree more - you are preaching to the converted. Life is varying shades of grey, neither black nor white. As to the question of race, it is not actually a biological/scientific reality, it is a simplified way of grouping groups of individuals which share a certain disctinction of similar DNA.

However, you have taken one comment I made, and using simplistic rationalisation defined me as a 'racist'. On other posts you have also generalized about EG Daily Mail Readers all being bigots etc etc, thus applying the same broad brushstokes when it suits you.

If you are going to hold a certain philosophical position on the nature of humanity and behaviour (and in this case I agree with your position on their complexity thereof); you cannot ignore this viewpoint when considering groups/individuals that don't meet your approval. This is called hypocrisy, and is probably the worst of crimes in philosophy.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Jul 2006, 09:18

How you can possibly ascribe to my viewpoint, then make the comment you did about the team not being representative of france is beyond me then.

Where the daily mail is concerned, I stand by my viewpoint, the daily mail is a newspaper written by bigots, and those that read it either are bigoted, or become bigotted. Maybe there are some who read it for a laugh, or who buy it when toilet paper is scarce, but other than that, most people who don't ascribe to the mail's world view wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

Outside of politicians and journalists, nobody who doesn't support their agenda would ever read an inflammatory rag like the mail, because it is a totally shit newspaper. It's neither entertaining like a tabloid, nor considered like the quality newspapers (who actually have different viewpoints on the same subject often in their content.)

Yes, maybe that makes me a hypocrite, but well, talking about the mail is hardly a sweeping generalisation, and I wouldn't hold it against someone if they had the mail in their bag, but it would when I heard them parotting it's bigoted small minded views.

If you are, as you claim, not small minded, then why on earth make such a ridiculous comment as you did?

I find

RobD · Post by **RobD** » 07 Jul 2006, 12:21

I saw quite a few of the black French players belting out the France National anthem. They must have some love of country.

coneye · Post by **coneye** » 08 Jul 2006, 08:47

RobD wrote:I saw quite a few of the black French players belting out the France National anthem. They must have some love of country.

They do have some love. Its called love of money.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 08 Jul 2006, 09:28

"I think of myself as a human being, under the Sky, under the heaven man, there is but one family, it just so happen man, that people are different."

- Bruce Lee

Raff The Frenchman · Post by **Raff The Frenchman** » 08 Jul 2006, 11:14

coneye wrote:
RobD wrote:I saw quite a few of the black French players belting out the France National anthem. They must have some love of country.
They do have some love. Its called love of money.

sad asshole ! for the money they play in foreign countries, Real de Madrid, Manchester etc...

when they play for France its because they love France...

Freiheit · Post by **Freiheit** » 08 Jul 2006, 15:04

Seems like the germans have made their mind up who they want to win tomorrow: http://www.pizza-boykott.com/