Heavyweights : David Haye vs. Oscar Bonavena

[gilgamesh]

To sum it up:

Haye was a mediocre heavyweight, at least that is what Dr. Duke himself said.
Hayes's big wins were over Marc McCormeck who was 35 at the time and Derek Chisora. Yes, Derek Chisora.
Chisora had lost three of his previous four fights, went on to lose several more fights and has no wins of any consequence. However, he did have a pulse, have to give him that.
Oh and I am biased because I think Bonavena's era was better than Hayes in the heavyweight division.

Yeah that's basically Chisora's claim to fame. "Loser to the Stars" and every now and again he gives a spirited effort while losing.

[DrDuke]

To sum it up:

Haye was a mediocre heavyweight, at least that is what Dr. Duke himself said.
Hayes's big wins were over Marc McCormeck who was 35 at the time and Derek Chisora. Yes, Derek Chisora.
Chisora had lost three of his previous four fights, went on to lose several more fights and has no wins of any consequence. However, he did have a pulse, have to give him that.
Oh and I am biased because I think Bonavena's era was better than Hayes in the heavyweight division.

Holy sh1t, you talk about honesty in other thread and then you severely misinterpreted my words in this one. No one claimed, that Haye's era was better. What a disgusting liar you are. The point was, that you're biased, because you won't give any credit to modern boxers.

[emallini]

You chumps are fornicating clowns. Keyboard warrior bums.

[DrDuke]

You chumps are fornicating clowns. Keyboard warrior bums.

[Onetimeonly]

Bonavena is a tough match up for haye. Huge chin and motor, he'd make David fight more than he'd prefer. Humongous speed advantage for haye. I'll take David to hold on late for a Dec.

[Ambling Alp II]

To sum it up:

Haye was a mediocre heavyweight, at least that is what Dr. Duke himself said.
Hayes's big wins were over Marc McCormeck who was 35 at the time and Derek Chisora. Yes, Derek Chisora.
Chisora had lost three of his previous four fights, went on to lose several more fights and has no wins of any consequence. However, he did have a pulse, have to give him that.
Oh and I am biased because I think Bonavena's era was better than Hayes in the heavyweight division.

Holy sh1t, you talk about honesty in other thread and then you severely misinterpreted my words in this one. No one claimed, that Haye's era was better. What a disgusting liar you are. The point was, that you're biased, because you won't give any credit to modern boxers.

I'm a liar? Wow.
You said Haye was mediocre at heavyweight.
You pointed out McMormeck and Chsiroa as big wins.
I never said that you said Haye's era was better.

[DrDuke]

Whatever. (c)

[Cojimar 1946]

My point is that you can't compare Klitschko's "effort" to Bonavena's. He fought a whopping six rounds against Lewis and you seem to think this was some herculean effort for the ages. He looked terrible against Byrd and then quit.
Bonavena decked Frazier twice in one fight and held his own for 15 rounds in the other. He put up a decent showing until the 15th round against Ali. That dwarfs what Klitschko or whatever the great David Haye ever did.
Yes, you randomly brought up Cleveland Williams because of my "oldie bias". There were many fighters before and after Williams who were better than him. He had his good points and bad. That isn't "oldie bias".

Making obvious points about Bonavena isn't "oldie bias" either.

I don't see how Bonavena is far more accomplished frankly. Most of the fights Bonavena is remembered for are fights he lost. We don't rank fighters on their losses. Moreover some of the guys who beat him like Jimmy Ellis and Ron Lyle are not exactly legends and losing to them could be reasonably interpreted as evidence Bonavena is just not that good.

How on earth does a loss to Ali dwarf the best wins of either Klitschko?

[Ambling Alp II]

Obviously it would have been better to have beat Ali or Frazier However, it's harder to give a great fighter like Ali and Frazier a tough fighters than beat a stiff. We weren't talking about Wladimir. Really weren't talking about Vitaly either; we were talking about David Haye, but some reason Vitaly got brought up out of nowhere.

Bonavena did beat Chuvalo and had some other decent wins. Nothing spectaular. Just think what he did was more impressive than what David Haye did. In my humble opinion that is better than beating Derek Chisora. So is giving Ali and Frazier tough fights. Just an opinion though.

[Onetimeonly]

My point is that you can't compare Klitschko's "effort" to Bonavena's. He fought a whopping six rounds against Lewis and you seem to think this was some herculean effort for the ages. He looked terrible against Byrd and then quit.
Bonavena decked Frazier twice in one fight and held his own for 15 rounds in the other. He put up a decent showing until the 15th round against Ali. That dwarfs what Klitschko or whatever the great David Haye ever did.
Yes, you randomly brought up Cleveland Williams because of my "oldie bias". There were many fighters before and after Williams who were better than him. He had his good points and bad. That isn't "oldie bias".

Making obvious points about Bonavena isn't "oldie bias" either.

I don't see how Bonavena is far more accomplished frankly. Most of the fights Bonavena is remembered for are fights he lost. We don't rank fighters on their losses. Moreover some of the guys who beat him like Jimmy Ellis and Ron Lyle are not exactly legends and losing to them could be reasonably interpreted as evidence Bonavena is just not that good.

How on earth does a loss to Ali dwarf the best wins of either Klitschko?

Anybody that knows how to rank fighters recognizes good losses. Obviously, you've never been someone who can be respected evaluating a resume, just drop the we.

[Cojimar 1946]

Funny enough, despite his good losses to Ali and Frazier he was comprehensively beaten by guys who are nowhere near as good as either of them on multiple occasions. You didn't need to be remotely in the same stratosphere as either of these guys to beat him comprehensively. Ellis even dropped and hurt him multiple times. That's why I'm a little confused at people bringing up his losses to Frazier and Ali when they didn't correlate with lesser opposition.

When Ali had fought Frazier he was coming off a long layoff with only one fight since his return from exile. You don't think this might have impacted his performance a bit?

[Ambling Alp II]

The guys that Bonavena had (except for DQ loss that he avenged) were very good fighters and better than David Hayes. Ellis, Patterson, Lyle aren't embarrassing losses. Bonavena also beat Chuvalo. He beat Leotis Martin. He beat Karl Mildenberger. Not legends. Nothing huge if you are ali or Frazier. However, they were respectable opponents. Haye beat Derek Chisora.

You have to be smart about how you rate fighters. If you are comparing two legends, then a loss to a fighter like Lyle or Ellis is a bigger deal than when rating two lesser fighters.

As for giving great fighters a lot of trouble; sure Ali was not at his best. But still it was a sold performance by Bonavena. He held his own against Joe Frazier. Can you seriously imagine Haye going 15 rounds and holding his own against Joe Frazier? You have realize that to a certain extent, you have to take into consideration how competitive a fight was.

If you asked Joe Frazier who was the best of Bonavena or Dave Zigliwicz, or Terry Daniels, who do you think he would pick?

[BoxBuzz]

The guys that Bonavena had (except for DQ loss that he avenged) were very good fighters and better than David Hayes. Ellis, Patterson, Lyle aren't embarrassing losses. Bonavena also beat Chuvalo. He beat Leotis Martin. He beat Karl Mildenberger. Not legends. Nothing huge if you are ali or Frazier. However, they were respectable opponents. Haye beat Derek Chisora.

You have to be smart about how you rate fighters. If you are comparing two legends, then a loss to a fighter like Lyle or Ellis is a bigger deal than when rating two lesser fighters.

As for giving great fighters a lot of trouble; sure Ali was not at his best. But still it was a sold performance by Bonavena. He held his own against Joe Frazier. Can you seriously imagine Haye going 15 rounds and holding his own against Joe Frazier? You have realize that to a certain extent, you have to take into consideration how competitive a fight was.

If you asked Joe Frazier who was the best of Bonavena or Dave Zigliwicz, or Terry Daniels, who do you think he would pick?

I'd say you have to rate Oscar above David. But I would say the fight would be a lot closer than the records would tend to define. I understand that Oscar fought tougher competition. But Haye fought who was put in front of him. As did Oscar, and that puts them back at square one. I'd favor Haye to score an upset.