Would Ali's greatness be diminished if:

[f read]

I understand that Sonny was in top physical and mental condition for the rematch. That was before the rematch was postponed for many months due to Alis having an emergency appendix operation. I read that Liston was motivated hungry and ready to reclaim the title. When the cancellation occurred he lost interest and was not in peak condition. The second fight was an in house debate on whether the fix was in. I checked Alis history and he only has one other first round knockout in all 61 pro fights. He did land a right hand on the side of Sonnys face now how actually devastating it was is questionable. Walcott the referee lost total control and order of the contest. He technically could have disqualified Muhammad for not going to a neutral corner. Also suspicious is the fight took place in an unknown little town called Lewiston Maine. There were other rumors including Organized Crime and the Nation of Islam. Yes it is still a mystery for sure.

[BoxBuzz]

Well...using our brain for something besides a hat rack apparently is not in fashion.

IF Liston was "skeered" then it wasn't a fix.....Liston was Skeered...and just didnt' go forward. You might not like it...but not pre planned. Rather....simply clumsily executed.

The punch is remarkable when viewed forensically. And someone losing their equilibrium in odd timing is unusual, but not without other examples. But perhaps you watch more golf than maritial arts. So to rule it out and call it "obvious" simply shows lack of assessment experience.

But....just to be helpful.....go watch Zora Foley's KO. And then come back and tell us how phoney that looked. And when looked through the same eyes that are "certain" that Liston's fall was purely fictional....then you can make a case for Zora as well. Which some have indeed done. But they simply engaging in gooficiousness. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'll even provide it for you.

[bwu]

Not to be disrespectful, but it feels like we're doing something my old professors called "fighting the hypo." I believe the youngsters now call it "losing the plot." For the purposes of this thread, we aren't arguing legitimacy. In fact, I think if we continue down this path of "were they fixes"(which has been debated elsewhere on the board), we lose a really interesting discussion.

The premise is that there is definitive proof that Liston threw both fights: What then? We've seen some interesting discussions about how (or if) it would alter Ali's legacy. Think about all the different ways this could go.

One scenario is that Ali and his people weren't in on the plot. It would certainly drive lively debate as to what would have happened in a fair match. It would open up new questions: Why did Sonny fight so hard in the first five rounds (especially the first, second and fifth)of the '64 bout if he was going to lay down?

What if, in this fictional world, the proof includes evidence that Ali's men knew, but Muhammad was unaware? That would tend to place all sorts of actions by Angelo Dundee, Bundini Brown and Ferdie Pacheco in a new light. It could extend to questions about what happened in the careers of other fighter with whom those men worked.

Then there's what I think would be the nightmare scenario: Ali knew. What if, for instance, someone would find some secret footage of Ali and Liston rehearsing their matches? This could extend beyond the ring. Ali is still very important sociologically, at least here in the States. If it came out that his championship began with fraud, it's hard to imagine that Muhammad would remain in the esteem that he is generally held to this day.

It's hard for me to imagine the Ali legend not taking a hit if something came out. With all that being said, I don't think we'll ever have to deal with it in real life. Has any pair of fights been more scrutinized...ever? If such evidence existed, it would likely have surfaced in the past 57 years. But it makes for a very interesting thread that has the potential to springboard into wide discussion.

[Tuan_Jim]

I understand that Sonny was in top physical and mental condition for the rematch. That was before the rematch was postponed for many months due to Alis having an emergency appendix operation. I read that Liston was motivated hungry and ready to reclaim the title. When the cancellation occurred he lost interest and was not in peak condition. The second fight was an in house debate on whether the fix was in. I checked Alis history and he only has one other first round knockout in all 61 pro fights. He did land a right hand on the side of Sonnys face now how actually devastating it was is questionable. Walcott the referee lost total control and order of the contest. He technically could have disqualified Muhammad for not going to a neutral corner. Also suspicious is the fight took place in an unknown little town called Lewiston Maine. There were other rumors including Organized Crime and the Nation of Islam. Yes it is still a mystery for sure.

'He only scored one other first round KO' is terrible logic.

Virgil Hill KOd Fabrice Tiozzo in one. How many first round KOs did he score? Does that mean it was a dive?

Michael Nunn KOd Sumbu Kalambay in one. How many first round KOs did he score? Does that mean it was a dive?

[f read]

I understand that Sonny was in top physical and mental condition for the rematch. That was before the rematch was postponed for many months due to Alis having an emergency appendix operation. I read that Liston was motivated hungry and ready to reclaim the title. When the cancellation occurred he lost interest and was not in peak condition. The second fight was an in house debate on whether the fix was in. I checked Alis history and he only has one other first round knockout in all 61 pro fights. He did land a right hand on the side of Sonnys face now how actually devastating it was is questionable. Walcott the referee lost total control and order of the contest. He technically could have disqualified Muhammad for not going to a neutral corner. Also suspicious is the fight took place in an unknown little town called Lewiston Maine. There were other rumors including Organized Crime and the Nation of Islam. Yes it is still a mystery for sure.

'He only scored one other first round KO' is terrible logic.

Virgil Hill KOd Fabrice Tiozzo in one. How many first round KOs did he score? Does that mean it was a dive?

Michael Nunn KOd Sumbu Kalambay in one. How many first round KOs did he score? Does that mean it was a dive?
[/quote
No certainly not. Tell me the scenarios and circumstances surrounding the Hill-Tiozzo and Nunn-Kalambay fights. I laid out several possibilities about the Ali-Liston 2 fight so explain the background of these other fights. The suspicious circumstances. This was a high profile heavyweight championship fight. Ali at the time was a very controversial figure and Liston was certainly involved with shady elements. Do you know who Blinky Palermo is? The location the ending and so forth.

[Tuan_Jim]

You said 'I've checked Ali's record and see that he only scored one other 1st round KO' which is what I was responding to, due to the deeply flawed logic. How many one-punch KOs did Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman score? Did Lennox take a dive? Twice?!!

Yes, I know all about Ali/Liston 2. Everybody on this forum does.

[Controversial]

No he decided that in the days and maybe weeks before. Ali's KO power or lack of it has nothing to do with Liston going down to escape his demons.

Demons? Or somebody waiting to take a shot at him

Whatever his 'demons' were. I'm saying he himself wanted out, one way or another. I don't think anyone else had anything DIRECTLY to do with it. Folks said Liston was in tremendous shape for the fight. By fight time, he just needed to escape and he did.

If you are going to throw a fight and make the bookies think you are going to win, so they make the odds bigger for losing, then you will get in great shape. Whatever happened he threw the fight IMO.


.

[Controversial]

Well...using our brain for something besides a hat rack apparently is not in fashion.

IF Liston was "skeered" then it wasn't a fix.....Liston was Skeered...and just didnt' go forward. You might not like it...but not pre planned. Rather....simply clumsily executed.

The punch is remarkable when viewed forensically. And someone losing their equilibrium in odd timing is unusual, but not without other examples. But perhaps you watch more golf than maritial arts. So to rule it out and call it "obvious" simply shows lack of assessment experience.

But....just to be helpful.....go watch Zora Foley's KO. And then come back and tell us how phoney that looked. And when looked through the same eyes that are "certain" that Liston's fall was purely fictional....then you can make a case for Zora as well. Which some have indeed done. But they simply engaging in gooficiousness. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'll even provide it for you.

Folley and Liston aren't really comparable though. Folley was no Liston, as a fighter or character. For one Folley had been knocked out in previous fights. No one gave him a chance of beating Ali, so why bother throwing the fight, unless there was big money to be made on betting that he would lose in round 7. He was knocked down in an earlier round too, got up and actually tried to make a fight of it and caught Ali with some decent shots. Folley was chasing Ali for 7 rounds, not 2 minutes, he would've been a lot more tired. Folley actually looked finished too when the fight was stopped. Liston on the other hand was mixing in very shady circles and he came from a criminal background where doing dodgy things wouldn't be a worry to him. The odds on Liston losing in the 1st round would have been big and he just didn't look hurt, it looked staged.

I think when you look at the other things surrounding that fight it begins to look very fishy.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Answer is no

Still beat norton twice, frazier twice and foreman. Plus a slew of worthy challengers

[goose 5]

As for the juiced gloves in the first fight: Maybe Liston' corner didn't know he intended to lose, so when he was in trouble they juiced his gloves. Now, I am not saying I believe that; I'm just suggesting it as an explanation.

[Tuan_Jim]

Ali's non-title scalp collection of 70-74 is better than many celebrated heavyweight champs' title opposition.

Quarry twice
Bonavena
Ellis
Chuvalo
Patterson
Mathis
Foster
Bugner
Norton
Frazier

What does Larry Holmes have in his celebrated 20?

[f read]

Ali's non-title scalp collection of 70-74 is better than many celebrated heavyweight champs' title opposition.

Quarry twice
Bonavena
Ellis
Chuvalo
Patterson
Mathis
Foster
Bugner
Norton
Frazier

What does Larry Holmes have in his celebrated 20?

That was one of Larry Holmes liabilities which i mentioned in an earlier post. He never had what i would call a great opponent to bring out the best in him. I am still waiting for your response and insight on the Other first round knockouts you mentioned.

[Syntax Error]

There were definitive proof that Sonny Liston threw both fights ? If so, by how much ?

I don't think so, because Ali did more than enough subsequently to prove that he was the real deal before anyone had ever heard of Evander Holyfield.

What mostly defines Ali's legacy was being forced into exile just as he'd entered his prime, then re-emerging just in time for the golden age of HW boxing & coming out on top in that era, despite having a diminished skillset.

[f read]

There were definitive proof that Sonny Liston threw both fights ? If so, by how much ?

I don't think so, because Ali did more than enough subsequently to prove that he was the real deal before anyone had ever heard of Evander Holyfield.

What mostly defines Ali's legacy was being forced into exile just as he'd entered his prime, then re-emerging just in time for the golden age of HW boxing & coming out on top in that era, despite having a diminished skillset.

Yes and even after the loss to Joe Frazier in Super fight 1 March 8 1971. He came back strong and compiled two years worth of victories before another set back a broken jaw against then unknown Ken Norton. This is what champions are made of. They come back after a loss or a letdown. Ali carried on and defeated George Foreman October 30 1974 in The Rumble In The Jungle. This the 1970s was the golden era of the heavyweight division. It is too bad that Holmes and Tyson were not around against all this great competition. I always said that Holmes greatest liability was his lack of a great opponent to bring out the best in him. He was coming into his own in the later 1970s when Quarry Lyle Jimmy Young Foreman and Frazier were already finishing up or were at the very end of their careers. Ali did slow down speed wise and ability wise by the mid 1970s but he became a man in terms of ring saavy intelligence and smarts. If you look at the young Cassius Clay even after winning the title he still has the look of a growing lad. He was one of the top 5 heavyweights some say 1A or 1B with Joe Louis.