Liston circa 58 v Clay 64 who wins ?

barry · Post by **barry** » 28 Jun 2006, 10:08

Ali 1964-1967 beats every heavyweight in history! In my opinion, Ali at his very best beats everyone else at they're very best!!!! There are a few that would have a punchers chance, but on pure boxing ability and talent Ali was just too good!

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 28 Jun 2006, 10:32

barry wrote:Ali 1964-1967 beats every heavyweight in history! In my opinion, Ali at his very best beats everyone else at they're very best!!!! There are a few that would have a punchers chance, but on pure boxing ability and talent Ali was just too good!

Don't agree... I think the 70's version was better and Joe Louis was better than both.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 13 Jul 2006, 11:50

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper in the very fight before he fought Liston.

How long would Henry Cooper have lasted with the real Liston?

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 13 Jul 2006, 13:22

Decagon wrote:
Ali also said that Joe Frazier was a gorilla. Does that mean that Joe was actually a gorilla?

Dundee also said that there was a five-minute break between rounds four and five in Ali-Cooper I. Does that mean that was true?

The boxing media said that the 1970s was one of the worst eras the heavyweight division had ever seen, since there was no dominant champion, and an old fart from the 1960s was still beating people. Was that true?

Yes, Frazier was a gorilla, Dundee was telling the truth, and the 1970s heavyweight division pales in comparison to the current crop of ATG heavyweights.

RAPID · Post by **RAPID** » 13 Jul 2006, 21:35

evndrbsn WROTE:
"Yes, Frazier was a gorilla, Dundee was telling the truth"

What a dumb and rediculous statement to make that Smokin Joe Frazier former heavyweight champion of the world was a gorilla.
I guess the same holds true for you.
If Dundee said you were a gorilla you would agree that you were in fact a gorilla.
Dundee was a trainer, that's it.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 13 Jul 2006, 21:40

RAPID wrote:evndrbsn WROTE:
"Yes, Frazier was a gorilla, Dundee was telling the truth"

What a dumb and rediculous statement to make that Smokin Joe Frazier former heavyweight champion of the world was a gorilla.
I guess the same holds true for you.
If Dundee said you were a gorilla you would agree that you were in fact a gorilla.
Dundee was a trainer, that's it.

Actually I was saying when Dundee said there was a five minute break inbetween rounds, he was telling the truth. I was saying that Frazier was a gorilla, as Ali had stated. And I was completely not being serious. Thanks for playing the "I'm an Idiot" game, you win the grand prize.

RAPID · Post by **RAPID** » 13 Jul 2006, 21:55

evndrbsn WROTE:

Actually I was saying when Dundee said there was a five minute break inbetween rounds, he was telling the truth. I was saying that Frazier was a gorilla, as Ali had stated. And I was completely not being serious. Thanks for playing the "I'm an Idiot" game, you win the grand prize.

Dundee said this Dundee said that.
Thank's for clearing that up. OK, Ali stated it. Same holds true.
In the "I'm an Idiot game" your living it not playing it.
OH! "I'm completely not being serious".

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 13 Jul 2006, 21:56

Decagon wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Before Columbus sailed they said the world was flat...Was that true?
My point is that this is historically innacurate. Pythagoras determined that the Earth was round almost 2000 years before Columbus sailed for America, by looking at the Earth's shadow on the Moon. Let's not forget that the globe was invented in 1492.

http://www.maps-charts.com/images/Table ... 40-331.jpg

Decagon, this is simply a case of mistaken identity. The "they" of which I speak are not the "they" of which you speak. You assumed I was speaking of the most educated of the most educated........and then you felt the need to enlighten......very rash. There is honor in deliberate reflection...life is long there is no need for rush to judgement.

This will also work to your advantage in the Spinks-Moore evaluation and in other critical clinical assessments where we may find ourselves at odds.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 13 Jul 2006, 22:26

RAPID wrote:evndrbsn WROTE:

Actually I was saying when Dundee said there was a five minute break inbetween rounds, he was telling the truth. I was saying that Frazier was a gorilla, as Ali had stated. And I was completely not being serious. Thanks for playing the "I'm an Idiot" game, you win the grand prize.

Dundee said this Dundee said that.
Thank's for clearing that up. OK, Ali stated it. Same holds true.
In the "I'm an Idiot game" your living it not playing it.
OH! "I'm completely not being serious".

Tell Frazier he's still a gorilla!

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 14 Jul 2006, 02:33

Was Liston a bully, was Liston a quitter?
It's simple as he proved to us on both that he damn well was.
What more eveidence does one need except maybe Liston
actually coming out and saying he was, but that's not
gonna' happen.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 14 Jul 2006, 11:33

Decagon wrote:Mike Tyson proved he was a quitter twice, too.

You take that back. You take that back now! You've got some nerve Dec. I've listened to a good number of your misguided rants one too many times now.

Tyson did not prove he was a quitter twice! I counted three times

vs. Holyfield II: bit Holyfield twice rather than get beaten to a pulp again
vs. D. Williams: KO'd by a blocked punch, refused to get up
vs. McBride: Bit his nipple (supposedly), tried to break his arm, and still quit in his corner in a fairly competitive fight when he realized the pitter pat punching McBride was close to KOing him

One could almost make a case against Lennox Lewis, too, but I'd say he just got KTFO.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 14 Jul 2006, 13:10

granberry wrote:Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper in the very fight before he fought Liston.

Ali was fooling around and got caught with a good shot. When Ali took Cooper seriously in the rematch Cooper hardly landed a punch on him.

granberry wrote:How long would Henry Cooper have lasted with the real Liston?

Two rounds?

Styles make fights.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 14 Jul 2006, 16:38

Decagon wrote:
Taylor wrote:If Machen could last 12 rounds and give Liston some trouble,Then Ali would also even easier.
Machen was in survival mode against Liston. If Machen had been remotely interested in winning that fight, he would have been slaughtered.

Here is an excerpt from The Rough Guide to Muhammad Ali in regards to Ali's first fight with Liston:

Towards the end of the fourth, though, Clay began to have trouble with his eyes. They were stinging badly, and began to stream with tears. Angelo Dundee guessed that liniment from Liston's shoulder or the coagulant his corner had used to stem the bleeding from the cut under his eye had been transferred into Clay's eyes via Liston's gloves. Many years later, David Remnick uncovered hearsay evidence that Liston's gloves had been juiced by his cornerman Joe Pollino, a tactic they'd also used against Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams. Pollino was said to have used an astringent that blinded a man just long enough for Liston to lay some leather on him.

While it is "hearsay evidence," I look at Liston's wins over Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams a little more suspiciously now, especially after what transpired in his first fight with Clay/Ali.

If anyone is interested, I'd be willing to transcribe the entire chapter about Clay-Liston I. Its mostly things everyone has heard before but it is an interesting read nevertheless.

theone · Post by **theone** » 14 Jul 2006, 21:32

A bully like Liston will always lose against someone who does not fear him. That's why Clay/Ali will always beat the guy and that's why I do not really rate Liston. If you were intimidated he wins, but the Dempsey's, Marciano's, Louis', Fraziers, Foremans would all have blown him away

The theory that all bullies will back down if you show no fear is bullshit. I grew up in the south bronx, a haven for bullies, and most loved to fight and perffered targets who werent afraid. More sporting I suppose.

I dont believe Liston folded against Ali because Ali showed no fear.
Liston became intimadated by Ali when he realized their was no way he could beat him.

Dempsey, Marciano and probably Louis could be as brave and bold as they wanted to be and still would've ended up ko'd. Their styles wouldn't come close to frustrating Liston they way Ali's did.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 14 Jul 2006, 21:46

The one, your from the South Bronx. Have you ever heard of the Tremont school of Judo and Jujutsu?
535 E. Tremont ave.

theone · Post by **theone** » 14 Jul 2006, 21:52

The one, your from the South Bronx. Have you ever heard of the Tremont school of Judo and Jujutsu?
535 E. Tremont ave.

I actually live right off E.Tremont, near University and Harrison. But no, I never heard of the school. How long has it been there?

theone · Post by **theone** » 14 Jul 2006, 21:54

I also lived in Chicago for a few years expug. I lived on Seminary st., a few blocks away from Wrigley Field.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 14 Jul 2006, 21:57

Gentleman named Antonio Perreira opened it in 1960 I believe.
I used to go there and train Judo with his guys.
He passed away im 1999. The school carried on for a bit without him but Im wondering if it is closed now .

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 14 Jul 2006, 21:58

theone wrote:I also lived in Chicago for a few years expug. I lived on Seminary st., a few blocks away from Wrigley Field.

That area is jumpin , Lots to do.

theone · Post by **theone** » 14 Jul 2006, 22:01

He passed away im 1999. The school carried on for a bit without him but Im wondering if it is closed now .

I'll check it out and let you know.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 14 Jul 2006, 22:03

I appreciate that. Thanks.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 15 Jul 2006, 09:58

theone wrote:
A bully like Liston will always lose against someone who does not fear him. That's why Clay/Ali will always beat the guy and that's why I do not really rate Liston. If you were intimidated he wins, but the Dempsey's, Marciano's, Louis', Fraziers, Foremans would all have blown him away
The theory that all bullies will back down if you show no fear is bullshit. I grew up in the south bronx, a haven for bullies, and most loved to fight and perffered targets who werent afraid. More sporting I suppose.

I dont believe Liston folded against Ali because Ali showed no fear.
Liston became intimadated by Ali when he realized their was no way he could beat him.

Dempsey, Marciano and probably Louis could be as brave and bold as they wanted to be and still would've ended up ko'd. Their styles wouldn't come close to frustrating Liston they way Ali's did.

Sounds like the guys you described were more just guys who liked to fight rather than bullies. A bully is someone who targets people who can't or won't fight back. But if these guys were looking to fight people who werent afraid of them than it sounds more like people who were just challanging each other.

theone · Post by **theone** » 15 Jul 2006, 10:18

No they were bullies. The mostly targeted guys who would fight back, but who they were pretty sure they could beat.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 15 Jul 2006, 12:45

Which "bullies" told Liston he had to lose?

1---The muslims from Chicago who ran Ali?

2---The Mob?

theone · Post by **theone** » 17 Jul 2006, 23:12

hich "bullies" told Liston he had to lose?

No one needed to tell Liston to lose. The ass kicking Ali was laying on him was enough to convince him he wasnt going to win.

Liston circa 58 v Clay 64 who wins ?

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