Title Defenses: Quality on Average - Middleweights

[DrDuke]

Yes that's why I have both Monzon and Hagler as Top 3 all time Middleweights, and Hopkins and GGG aren't there. I would have Hopkins in the Top 5 though.

I'd say Monzon is #1, Hagler is #2.

Hopkins can easily fall short even to the top 5. The likes of Greb, Robinson, Benvenuti and Tiger have solid claims to be higher than Bernard.

Yep. Greb is #1. Robinson is #4. I'd probably put 'ol B Hop at 5. Benvenuti definitely doesn't have a better claim than Hopkins, But I'm sure there are guys that'd come close or you could make a strong argument for.

Maybe not Benvenuti, but Tiger definitely surpasses Hopkins.

[gilgamesh]

I'd say Monzon is #1, Hagler is #2.

Hopkins can easily fall short even to the top 5. The likes of Greb, Robinson, Benvenuti and Tiger have solid claims to be higher than Bernard.

Yep. Greb is #1. Robinson is #4. I'd probably put 'ol B Hop at 5. Benvenuti definitely doesn't have a better claim than Hopkins, But I'm sure there are guys that'd come close or you could make a strong argument for.

Maybe not Benvenuti, but Tiger definitely surpasses Hopkins.

Not to me. He would be pretty much right behind him though. Then I suppose Mickey Walker, Tony Zale, Stanley Ketchel. Types like that start coming into the mix. I'm not gonna try to order 'em, but I figure they'd be Top 10.

[Ambling Alp II]

Appreciate the thread. Don't agree with rating challengers lower a second time but to each his own.

Hagler

Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Vito Antuofermo - 6
Mustafo Hamsho - 5
Bill "Caveman" Lee - 1
Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Tony Sibson - 5
Wilford Scypion - 4
Roberto Duran - 6
Juan Domingo Roldan - 5
Mustafa Hamsho - 5
Thomas Hearns - 7
John Mugabi - 5

That is almost exactly how I have it.
Mugabi is hard to rate might go as high as 7 with him. For a short period of time, he was very good. He was actually probably fought the best of fight against Hagler out of all of these guys.

[gilgamesh]

Appreciate the thread. Don't agree with rating challengers lower a second time but to each his own.

Hagler

Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Vito Antuofermo - 6
Mustafo Hamsho - 5
Bill "Caveman" Lee - 1
Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Tony Sibson - 5
Wilford Scypion - 4
Roberto Duran - 6
Juan Domingo Roldan - 5
Mustafa Hamsho - 5
Thomas Hearns - 7
John Mugabi - 5

That is almost exactly how I have it.
Mugabi is hard to rate might go as high as 7 with him. For a short period of time, he was very good. He was actually probably fought the best of fight against Hagler out of all of these guys.

Yeah and even though Mugabi actually did capture a few titles later on his career I don't know if he was ever any stronger than he was against Hagler. He gave as good an effort as he possibly could've.

[giacomino]

Appreciate the thread. Don't agree with rating challengers lower a second time but to each his own.

Hagler

Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Vito Antuofermo - 6
Mustafo Hamsho - 5
Bill "Caveman" Lee - 1
Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Tony Sibson - 5
Wilford Scypion - 4
Roberto Duran - 6
Juan Domingo Roldan - 5
Mustafa Hamsho - 5
Thomas Hearns - 7
John Mugabi - 5

That is almost exactly how I have it.
Mugabi is hard to rate might go as high as 7 with him. For a short period of time, he was very good. He was actually probably fought the best of fight against Hagler out of all of these guys.

Yeah and even though Mugabi actually did capture a few titles later on his career I don't know if he was ever any stronger than he was against Hagler. He gave as good an effort as he possibly could've.

Saw a lot of Mugabi's fights. He fought the fight of his life against Hagler.
He got thumbed and lost his next title defense by TKO but he also looked like crap before the thumbing. He only won a jr. MW alphabet belt because French clubfighter Rene Jacquot hurt his ankle in their title fight. He got absolutely blown out by Terry Norris in his first defense, then lasted less than a round vs McClellan in a MW title fight. I don't know if the Hagler fight took it out of him, but Mugabi was a sitting duck against Duane Thomas, Norris and McClellan.

[margaret thatcher]

5 is okay for mugabi, certainly not 7 . mugabi is overrated in general, ko'd by every world class fighter he faced, most of the time being blown out. won his title on the other dude injuring his anklle in round 1 charles martin style. not really an impressive resume outside that either

good ko loss? so do we want to rate those high or not, some people cant keep it straight

[giacomino]

5 is okay for mugabi, certainly not 7 . mugabi is overrated in general, ko'd by every world class fighter he faced, most of the time being blown out. won his title on the other dude injuring his anklle in round 1 charles martin style. not really an impressive resume outside that either

good ko loss? so do we want to rate those high or not, some people cant keep it straight

Good point. I remember watching Mugabi fights before Hagler (he was always on TV) and he looked like a beast, but it was against limited opposition. He was really courageous vs Hagler but it was by far his best fight. In terms of ranking fighters going into fights with Hagler, I'd have Roldan, Sibson and Hamsho ahead of Mugabi

[Ezzard]

I watched Hagler-Mugabi again. The Beast had his moments, and there was some great action, but Hagler really dominated the fight.

[gilgamesh]

That is almost exactly how I have it.
Mugabi is hard to rate might go as high as 7 with him. For a short period of time, he was very good. He was actually probably fought the best of fight against Hagler out of all of these guys.

Yeah and even though Mugabi actually did capture a few titles later on his career I don't know if he was ever any stronger than he was against Hagler. He gave as good an effort as he possibly could've.

Saw a lot of Mugabi's fights. He fought the fight of his life against Hagler.
He got thumbed and lost his next title defense by TKO but he also looked like crap before the thumbing. He only won a jr. MW alphabet belt because French clubfighter Rene Jacquot hurt his ankle in their title fight. He got absolutely blown out by Terry Norris in his first defense, then lasted less than a round vs McClellan in a MW title fight. I don't know if the Hagler fight took it out of him, but Mugabi was a sitting duck against Duane Thomas, Norris and McClellan.

Yeah I have the Norris and McClellan blowouts in my collection.

[Ambling Alp II]

Gene Fullmer's 2nd title reign (NBA anyway) was pretty interesting. He defended the title against Giardello, Basilio, and Robinson in the same year!

Anyway:

Spider Webb - 8
Joey Giardello - 9
Carmen Basilio - 8
Ray Robinson - 8
Ray Robinson - 8
Florentino Fernandez - 5
Benny Paret - 5

[elmersalsa]

Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Vito Antuofermo - 6
Mustafo Hamsho - 5
Bill "Caveman" Lee - 1
Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Tony Sibson - 5
Wilford Scypion - 4
Roberto Duran - 8
Juan Domingo Roldan - 8
Mustafa Hamsho - 5
Thomas Hearns- 10 and why not?
John Mugabi-9

[elmersalsa]

Carlos Monzon

Nino Benvenuti - 7 (Rematches the man he won the title from, and dominates him.)
Emile Griffith - 7
Denny Moyer - 3
Jean Claude Bouttier - 5
Tom Bogs - 6
Bennie Briscoe - 7
Emile Griffith (2nd fight) - 6
Jean Claude Bouttier (2nd fight) 5
Jose Napoles - 7
Tony Mundine - 5
Tony Licata - 5
Gratien Tonna - 4
Rodrigo Valdes - 9
Rodrigo Valdes II- 9

[pound per pound]

Carlos Monzon

Nino Benvenuti - 7 first fight, 4 re-match.
Emile Griffith - 6
Denny Moyer - 3
Jean Claude Bouttier - 5
Tom Bogs - 5
Bennie Briscoe - 6
Emile Griffith (2nd fight) - 5
Jean Claude Bouttier (2nd fight) 5
Jose Napoles - 6
Tony Mundine - 5
Tony Licata - 5
Gratien Tonna - 4
Rodrigo Valdes - 8
Rodrigo Valdes II- 8

Not as great as meet the eye as many were older fighters or blown up lower weight fighters.

[pound per pound]

Hagler

Fulgencio Obelmejias - 5
Vito Antuofermo - 6
Mustafo Hamsho - 6
Bill "Caveman" Lee - 2
Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Tony Sibson - 5
Wilford Scypion - 3
Roberto Duran - 7
Juan Domingo Roldan - 5
Mustafa Hamsho - 5
Thomas Hearns - 9
John Mugabi - 6

Slightly better than Monzon

[pound per pound]

Golovkin


Kassim Ouma - 3
Lajuan Simon - 2
Makoto Fuchigami -2
Grzegorz Proksa - 5
Gabriel Rosado - 4
Nobuhiro Ishida - 3
Matthew Macklin - 6
Curtis Stevens - 4
Adama Osumanu - 2
Daniel Geale - 5
Marco Antonio Rubio -4
Martin Murray - 6
Willie Monroe Jr. - 4
David Lemieux - 5
Dominic Wade - 5
Kell Brook - 6
Daniel Jacobs - 6
Saul Alvarez - 9
Vanes Martirosyan - 4
Kamil Szeremeta - 2
Ryoto Murata - 4


He had a lot of title fights, but unlike Monzon and Hagler the famous lower wights fighters like Mayweather and Cotto wanted no part of him. Martinez did not want him either.

[Bodyshot3]

Sibson feels a bit under-scored and so does Benvenuti, he's at least an eight pushing a nine.
Benvenuti's record is in the crouching tiger zone, the guy was proper general at light-middle and middle.
Maybe the best Euro midweight fighter until Golvokin appeared....without the KOs.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think some people were taking into account that Benvenuti was slipping by then.