The Klitschko Brothers

[Ezzard]

Well speaking for myself I am aware that times were different. In a modern sense boxing is now a global competition. Hence it is a greater talent pool. However as you pointed out, fighters definitely fought more back then.

So what is the same? I prefer to use Ring Magazine Ratings as they have been around for 100 years. They generally rank guys well in their top ten rankings, though there are some real head scratchers in the rankings on occasion.

Still it is the best subjective ranking system in my opinion, and one rich with history.

If we were to pull the ranking of fighters when they fought them we would get a better picture of the wins and losses vs quality guys.

What is Elorde's, Zivic's, Maxim's and Giardello's record vs. the top ten ring magazine ranked fighters?

What is Klitshcko's record vs. the top ten ring magazine fighters?

They both have records, and in my opinion the best ones are the fighters with the highest winning percentages. Whether they fought them six times as I think Beterbeiv has or twenty five times. Does that make sense?

Looks like you've got yourself some homework.

Wladimir Klitschko (Dr. Steelhammer) is a 48-year-old retired Ukrainian professional boxer. He is a former heavyweight world champion with 5 world-title wins. In a career spanning 20 years, 5 months, and 13 days, Klitschko amassed a record of 64-5, which includes 53 wins via KO, 19 of which were in world-title fights. He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame (IBHOF) in 2021.

Now how many title fights did the others win?

I like the real Keith Moon, but you come acroos as one who does not like Klitschko.

This guy is fair on them, and wrote this article below.

https://iframe.BS.com/measured-against- ... li--148729

You could say school is in session.

I can't reach the site

[Ezzard]

Great HWs since I started watching boxing in the early 1980s...

Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko
Oleksandr Usyk

[Ambling Alp II]

i just don't see how you can watch them all fight and rate the bottom three with the top 5.
Wald certainly had some boxing skills and power. However, he had two great weakness- chin and stamina. The first five don't have that. Great fighters don't have two major weaknesses.

There is nothing about Vitaly that was impressive. It speaks volumes that he is tall and doesn't automatically get credited with a great jab. Didn't have the power or boxing ability of his brother.

Usyk-Has some ability, though not as much as the first 5.

The victims list of Wladimir is much weaker than the first 5 guys. They all beat guys much better than Chris Byrd. No great heavyweight in boxing history was stopped by non-contenders in their prime. None.
Vitaly beat no one worth mentioning. 0-2 in fights that mattered. The crybaby excuses don't count.

Usyk fights literally once a year.

If we judge these guys by how fighters have been judged for over 100 years, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis were great heavyweights; both on paper and on video. The Klitschkos and Usyk (at least not yet) are clearly not.

[Riddick Bowie]

Ah, the never ending Klitschko Bros debate doom-loop.

Klitschko supporters point to the awesome stats; Klitschko sceptics point to the opposition.

Vitali never beat anybody. Perhaps he could have beaten Byrd and Lewis but he didn't. It's not his fault Lewis ducked out of a rematch, but I do feel a legitimate all-time Great would have blasted through an old, tottering, overweight version of a Lewis who, for all his great qualities, was a bit chinny even in his prime.

After Byrd and Lewis, there's NO ONE important on his record. He was strong, uncoordinated, game (to a point), and huge. Unfortunately for him he didn't punch his weight, he didn't have a jab, and when hurt he ran backwards in a straight line. He would be in trouble against well-rounded greats of the past. Especially in a 15 rounder.

Wladimir's title stats are amazing and yet the best guy he beat was Byrd, who with his lack of power and size was tailor-made for him. Puritty, Sanders and Brewster destroyed him and he barely survived Peter. In 2006 he had the option of rematching Byrd for the IBF belt or rematching Brewster for the WBO belt while, more importantly, redeeming a humiliating loss -- and who did he choose? Byrd! Which tells you everything you need to know about him. He was down at least 15 times in his career and would be down another 15 against any great heavyweight.

In the last analysis, neither brothers' record can withstand scrutiny anymore than Wladimir can withstand a punch.

[margaret thatcher]

i just don't see how you can watch them all fight and rate the bottom three with the top 5.
Wald certainly had some boxing skills and power. However, he had two great weakness- chin and stamina. The first five don't have that. Great fighters don't have two major weaknesses.

There is nothing about Vitaly that was impressive. It speaks volumes that he is tall and doesn't automatically get credited with a great jab. Didn't have the power or boxing ability of his brother.

Usyk-Has some ability, though not as much as the first 5.

The victims list of Wladimir is much weaker than the first 5 guys. They all beat guys much better than Chris Byrd. No great heavyweight in boxing history was stopped by non-contenders in their prime. None.
Vitaly beat no one worth mentioning. 0-2 in fights that mattered. The crybaby excuses don't count.

Usyk fights literally once a year.

If we judge these guys by how fighters have been judged for over 100 years, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis were great heavyweights; both on paper and on video. The Klitschkos and Usyk (at least not yet) are clearly not.

even james toney ranks above usyk, right ?

make sure youve added your vote, reluctant one viewtopic.php?t=257692

[gilgamesh]

i just don't see how you can watch them all fight and rate the bottom three with the top 5.
Wald certainly had some boxing skills and power. However, he had two great weakness- chin and stamina. The first five don't have that. Great fighters don't have two major weaknesses.

There is nothing about Vitaly that was impressive. It speaks volumes that he is tall and doesn't automatically get credited with a great jab. Didn't have the power or boxing ability of his brother.

Usyk-Has some ability, though not as much as the first 5.

The victims list of Wladimir is much weaker than the first 5 guys. They all beat guys much better than Chris Byrd. No great heavyweight in boxing history was stopped by non-contenders in their prime. None.
Vitaly beat no one worth mentioning. 0-2 in fights that mattered. The crybaby excuses don't count.

Usyk fights literally once a year.

If we judge these guys by how fighters have been judged for over 100 years, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis were great heavyweights; both on paper and on video. The Klitschkos and Usyk (at least not yet) are clearly not.

He's fighting literally twice this year against the #1 opponent in the Heavyweight division.

And I'll say this for Wlad. You pointed out that his key weaknesses were Chin and Stamina right. He definitely had a questionable chin, and his stamina failed him on a few occasions in his career, and yet he went on to reign as Heavyweight Champion for almost 10 years after these weaknesses had been exposed. Can you think of any other fighter who was labeled as chinny, poor stamina, no heart etc. Who then went on to reign for nearly a decade as the #1 guy in their division?

[Seamus]

Some people will never see past the pre-Steward Wlad, or the Vitali who quit against Byrd.

[Ezzard]

Some people will never see past the pre-Steward Wlad, or the Vitali who quit against Byrd.

They just don't want to. It's odd.

[Ezzard]

Gene Tunney made most ATG HW Top 10 lists for decades despite relatively few fights in the division.

[Ambling Alp II]

Steward was his trainer in the first fight against Brewster. He got embarrassed in that one as well.
There simply is not much to see after that. He beat literally no one worth mentioning outside of Chris Byrd.
So no, it's not odd.

Yes, he has a lot of title defenses against nondescript competition. Tommy Burns had a lot of title defenses as well. Nobody cared. The sheer amount of title defenses doesn't mean anything. You can always find an easy mark to beat.

Why do we have to bend over backwards trying to create ways to make Klitschko look like a great fighter? This was never done for anyone prior to him.
On another thread, some people claimed that Frank Bruno was a "protected fighter". Frank Bruno fought Lennox Lewis (and Mike Tyson as well). Wladimir Klitschko ducked Lewis, but somehow that doesn't matter.

As for Usyk, he is actually going to fight twice this wow!! Wow what an achievement! And against the legendary Tyson Fury again. Tyson Fury, the guy that is supposedly way past his prime and barely beat a guy in his first pro fight. What an accomplishment for Usyk if he were to win this.

These guys should be rated similar to the same ways that prior fighters were rated. Who did you beat? Who did you lose to. etc. Not crybaby excuses and the number of title defenses.

[pound per pound]

Steward was his trainer in the first fight against Brewster. He got embarrassed in that one as well.
There simply is not much to see after that. He beat literally no one worth mentioning outside of Chris Byrd.
So no, it's not odd.

Yes, he has a lot of title defenses against nondescript competition. Tommy Burns had a lot of title defenses as well. Nobody cared. The sheer amount of title defenses doesn't mean anything. You can always find an easy mark to beat.

Why do we have to bend over backwards trying to create ways to make Klitschko look like a great fighter? This was never done for anyone prior to him.
On another thread, some people claimed that Frank Bruno was a "protected fighter". Frank Bruno fought Lennox Lewis (and Mike Tyson as well). Wladimir Klitschko ducked Lewis, but somehow that doesn't matter.

As for Usyk, he is actually going to fight twice this wow!! Wow what an achievement! And against the legendary Tyson Fury again. Tyson Fury, the guy that is supposedly way past his prime and barely beat a guy in his first pro fight. What an accomplishment for Usyk if he were to win this.

These guys should be rated similar to the same ways that prior fighters were rated. Who did you beat? Who did you lose to. etc. Not crybaby excuses and the number of title defenses.

No one is making this up.  Wlad has 20 + title defenses, many more than Tiny Burns.  Chageav, Brewster, Povetkin, Haye and Peter ( all KO'd by Wlad ) would have KO'd Burns early, and Byrd would win a wide decision over him.  It is odd to compare the two in the quality of opposition fought. It is Wald by a mile.

I posted on who Wlad beat and an article on his greatness which I did not write.

Now Lewis is a tiny bit better than Wlad in my opinion, but Wlad is 1-0 vs Rhaman where Lewis is 1-1.  And he rolled Mercer where Lewis  barely  beat him in  a 10 round fight. Those are their common  opponents.

[Ambling Alp II]

But Burns would have to be in the Top 10, though, right? 11 title defenses is more than Dempsey, Foreman, Frazier, Marciano, Liston, etc.

The point is that nobody was saying Burns was one of the Top hws of all time, not in the 1950s, the 2000s, whenever. The reason is that people know that the sheer amount of title defenses doesn't mean much. Quality trumps quantity. By a lot.

[Ezzard]

I get that some people don't think they're top 10. It's just a list, after all.

But not ATGs???

The commitment to being wrong is exceptional. But the emotional capital invested in the denial is most certainly unhealthy.

I guess it's time to move on.

[margaret thatcher]

alp also thinks james toney is a more accomplished cruiserweight than usyk, which is actually a far more bizarre position

viewtopic.php?t=257692

[keithmoonhangover]

No one is making this up.  Wlad has 20 + title defenses, many more than Tiny Burns..

Burns was defending the heavyweight championship of the world, not some belt with three letters on it.

[pound per pound]

No one is making this up.  Wlad has 20 + title defenses, many more than Tiny Burns..

Burns was defending the heavyweight championship of the world, not some belt with three letters on it.

He was a grade C Heavyweight champion who fought below light heavyweight in some fixed fights or at least they looked that way and beat mostly non deception competition. Wlad would crush him in three rounds or less.

And he could have a " Keith Moon " hagover, roll out of bed, jump his car into a pool, and beat Burns on the same day.

[keithmoonhangover]

No one is making this up.  Wlad has 20 + title defenses, many more than Tiny Burns..

Burns was defending the heavyweight championship of the world, not some belt with three letters on it.

Wlad would crush him in three rounds or less.

Objection your honor, speculation. I think Jack Dempsey would mop the floor with Tyson Fury, but I can't rate him differently because of it.

[Ezzard]

Burns was defending the heavyweight championship of the world, not some belt with three letters on it.

Wlad would crush him in three rounds or less.

Objection your honor, speculation. I think Jack Dempsey would mop the floor with Tyson Fury, but I can't rate him differently because of it.

C'mon, it's all speculation.

[Riddick Bowie]

Now Lewis is a tiny bit better than Wlad in my opinion, but Wlad is 1-0 vs Rhaman where Lewis is 1-1.  And he rolled Mercer where Lewis  barely  beat him in  a 10 round fight. Those are their common  opponents.

Klitschko supporter doesn't understand the passage of time, a concept even primitive man understood.

Figures.

[keithmoonhangover]

Wlad would crush him in three rounds or less.

Objection your honor, speculation. I think Jack Dempsey would mop the floor with Tyson Fury, but I can't rate him differently because of it.

C'mon, it's all speculation.

I said neither of them had beat a Hall of Famer, that wasn't speculation.

[Ezzard]

Objection your honor, speculation. I think Jack Dempsey would mop the floor with Tyson Fury, but I can't rate him differently because of it.

C'mon, it's all speculation.

I said neither of them had beat a Hall of Famer, that wasn't speculation.

I wasn't responding to that. I mean who cares about trivia? Holmes is the only HW to lose to a LHW champ in a century of the sport. Who cares? Just emotional people with a grudge.

I guess this is just Klitschko bait. And then in turn anti-K bait.

Rate all fighters as you like. I love discussing boxing. Arguing with the distressed not as much...

[pound per pound]

Looks like you've got yourself some homework.

Wladimir Klitschko (Dr. Steelhammer) is a 48-year-old retired Ukrainian professional boxer. He is a former heavyweight world champion with 5 world-title wins. In a career spanning 20 years, 5 months, and 13 days, Klitschko amassed a record of 64-5, which includes 53 wins via KO, 19 of which were in world-title fights. He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame (IBHOF) in 2021.

Now how many title fights did the others win?

I like the real Keith Moon, but you come acroos as one who does not like Klitschko.

This guy is fair on them, and wrote this article below.

https://iframe.BS.com/measured-against- ... li--148729

You could say school is in session.

I can't reach the site

https://iframe.BS.com/measured ... li--148729

Now can you? It is a detailed article.

[pound per pound]

Wlad would crush him in three rounds or less.

Objection your honor, speculation. I think Jack Dempsey would mop the floor with Tyson Fury, but I can't rate him differently because of it.

C'mon, it's all speculation.

Overruled.

Dempsey, if we are honest, was mopped by Gene Tunney at age 31 and 32. He was not shot, was in shape and he was active, Yet he badly lost both fights and IMO would have been stopped had the first been 15 rounds, not 10. Yes, it is speculation but Dempsey's eyes were so swollen he asked his corner to escort him to help find Tunney to congratulate him on his victory.

- P4P

[Ezzard]

Wladimir Klitschko (Dr. Steelhammer) is a 48-year-old retired Ukrainian professional boxer. He is a former heavyweight world champion with 5 world-title wins. In a career spanning 20 years, 5 months, and 13 days, Klitschko amassed a record of 64-5, which includes 53 wins via KO, 19 of which were in world-title fights. He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame (IBHOF) in 2021.

Now how many title fights did the others win?

I like the real Keith Moon, but you come acroos as one who does not like Klitschko.

This guy is fair on them, and wrote this article below.

https://iframe.BS.com/measured-against- ... li--148729

You could say school is in session.

I can't reach the site

https://iframe.BS.com/measured-against- ... li--148729

Now can you? It is a detailed article.

No, sorry. Not sure why not...

[margaret thatcher]

its because its on boxing scene and boxrec auto changes boxing scene urls to BS, which makes the links not work