funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04
Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.
I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least
So if he has 10 fights against David Allen, a returning Audley Harrison, Mark De Mori, Christian Hammer etc, that'd be enough to push him up there despite them being absolute tosh.
Quality over quantity. Doesnt matter how many fights he's had at HW when his wins are over Fury (the current best) twice, AJ (the second best twice) and Dubois (a current World Champ)
Arguably, given the changes of weight and the like, many of his Cruiserweight title defences would be classed as HW bouts back in the day.
Absolutely not saying that. And it's intetesting you immediately pick random crap fighters. I would expect a legit atg to be fighting the best.
Over the next 5 years there are a host of decent prospects and contenders who could challenge ..... bakole, kabayel, zhang, dycho, itauma, torrez, terremoana, wardly, also opatei will be making the move to heavy etc
funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04
Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.
I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least
So if he has 10 fights against David Allen, a returning Audley Harrison, Mark De Mori, Christian Hammer etc, that'd be enough to push him up there despite them being absolute tosh.
Quality over quantity. Doesnt matter how many fights he's had at HW when his wins are over Fury (the current best) twice, AJ (the second best twice) and Dubois (a current World Champ)
Arguably, given the changes of weight and the like, many of his Cruiserweight title defences would be classed as HW bouts back in the day.
Absolutely not saying that. And it's intetesting you immediately pick random crap fighters. I would expect a legit atg to be fighting the best.
Over the next 5 years there are a host of decent prospects and contenders who could challenge ..... bakole, kabayel, zhang, dycho, itauma, torrez, terremoana, wardly, also opatei will be making the move to heavy etc
Let's see some actual fights first
How many top wins do most ATG heavyweights have? Most have 5 or less. The rest is just filler for those with 50 fights.
He beat the recognised best at Cruiserweight, and despite massive physical disadvantages, he beat the recognised two best heavyweights conclusively .. twice.
However, lets not get distracted by the fact the two recognised heavyweights in question were not great themselves, and atop a very weak division.
I hope Usyk now retires to cement his legacy forever.
funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04
Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.
I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least
The argument for ranking Usyk over Holyfield was that he didn't lose in his prime like Evander did, although Evander's opponent resume is far stronger than Usyk's. I do think 1992 Bowe is a tougher matchup for Usyk than Fury.
Prime Evander vs Usyk is really an amazing matchup. Two excellent counter-punchers in great condition with wills of iron. Evander would have the edge in speed/power but Usyk the edge in defense/technical skills.
I agree.
That and the obvious they both cleaned up CW before going on to success at Heavy.
Bowe and Fury are both themselves very comparable.
I think beating AJ twice is better than beating the 40 something versions of Foreman and Holmes and a super unmotivated Buster Douglas.
Strongly disagree on the last point . . .AJ is an overly hyped poor man's Frank Bruno. Both of those early 40s versions of Foreman and Holmes would've beaten Joshua; way too crafty and durable.
At the time, Holy was criticized for beating up on another generations heroes. Looking back, this seems mostly incorrect, George and Larry earned their way as legit title challengers.
However you give either of them the AJ run from Wlad to Usyk, even with the Ruiz loss/rematch won and I don’t see either of them doing that at that point in their careers.
funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04
Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.
I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least
100% agree.
And he’s scraped through half those fight too.
He came up from unifying cw while it was the deepest in history and then beat joshua twice and fury twice, unifying titles. At a significant size disadvantage
He didnt have to fight garbage men and firefighters to build his record
funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04
Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.
I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least
All careers don't play out exactly the same. Sugar Ray Leonard is widely considered one of the all time greats, and he has relatively few fights for a guy of his lofty status, but so many of them were significant that they're worth a lot.
1 truly great win winds up being worth more in the eyes of fans than 15 wins over badly overmatched opponents.
So if he has 10 fights against David Allen, a returning Audley Harrison, Mark De Mori, Christian Hammer etc, that'd be enough to push him up there despite them being absolute tosh.
Quality over quantity. Doesnt matter how many fights he's had at HW when his wins are over Fury (the current best) twice, AJ (the second best twice) and Dubois (a current World Champ)
Arguably, given the changes of weight and the like, many of his Cruiserweight title defences would be classed as HW bouts back in the day.
Absolutely not saying that. And it's intetesting you immediately pick random crap fighters. I would expect a legit atg to be fighting the best.
Over the next 5 years there are a host of decent prospects and contenders who could challenge ..... bakole, kabayel, zhang, dycho, itauma, torrez, terremoana, wardly, also opatei will be making the move to heavy etc
Let's see some actual fights first
How many top wins do most ATG heavyweights have? Most have 5 or less. The rest is just filler for those with 50 fights.
For all his title defenses Joe Louis does not have any victories as good as the 2 Tyson Fury wins, and that's a fact jack. You're right that most of the top Heavyweights don't have all that many major marquee wins. Not their fault. There's really only ever a few guys in any given era who's name carries that kinda cache, and historical significance.
tonyevs wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 10:21
Usyk is without doubt now an ATG.
He beat the recognised best at Cruiserweight, and despite massive physical disadvantages, he beat the recognised two best heavyweights conclusively .. twice.
However, lets not get distracted by the fact the two recognised heavyweights in question were not great themselves, and atop a very weak division.
I hope Usyk now retires to cement his legacy forever.
Tyson Fury was a great Heavyweight Champion in my opinion. So yes, 2 wins over him are great.
Just because he can't get past Usyk, does not make Fury a bum. It's more of a statement on just how truly fantastic Usyk is, than it is a comment on Fury.
Absolutely not saying that. And it's intetesting you immediately pick random crap fighters. I would expect a legit atg to be fighting the best.
Over the next 5 years there are a host of decent prospects and contenders who could challenge ..... bakole, kabayel, zhang, dycho, itauma, torrez, terremoana, wardly, also opatei will be making the move to heavy etc
Let's see some actual fights first
How many top wins do most ATG heavyweights have? Most have 5 or less. The rest is just filler for those with 50 fights.
For all his title defenses Joe Louis does not have any victories as good as the 2 Tyson Fury wins, and that's a fact jack. You're right that most of the top Heavyweights don't have all that many major marquee wins. Not their fault. There's really only ever a few guys in any given era who's name carries that kinda cache, and historical significance.
I agree. I also think that they should defend against other guys who aren't necessarily top top guys because they're all potential banana skins, just ask Lennox Lewis. You have to beat the top guys and avoid banana skins to prove you're the best but Usyk has unfortunately turned pro late, joined heavyweight later and then been forced into contractual rematches.
Hell at Usyk's age, the banana skin he'll slip on is his own goddamn age or body failing him. He has had quite a few shoulder injuries and stuff over the years too right?
For me and others have disagreed, which is fair enough, the era isn't great, though Uysk is a great fighter. I do not rate the other 'top guys' such as Fury, AJ, Dubois, Wilder etc as highly as some but that is a personal opinion.
NazNaci1 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 20:28
An ATG, for sure. Best of this era.
Top 10 ATG HW? Not so sure, but not far off it.
For me and others have disagreed, which is fair enough, the era isn't great, though Uysk is a great fighter. I do not rate the other 'top guys' such as Fury, AJ, Dubois, Wilder etc as highly as some but that is a personal opinion.
You can only fight whoever’s on your era though.
And they might not be great but he’s beaten the best. Also, he cleaned out CW when it was hot.
Also, it’s not just who he’s beaten, it’s how he’s done it too. But you can have your opinion of course.
Either #1 or #2 at cruiser. At HW, there just isn't that much of a sample size. Holyfield had 23 HW fights before he faced John Ruiz on the backend of his career. Usyk has had 23 professional bouts that are recognized by Boxrec period (I'd argue we should include the WSB stuff too but alas).
tonyevs wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 10:21
Usyk is without doubt now an ATG.
He beat the recognised best at Cruiserweight, and despite massive physical disadvantages, he beat the recognised two best heavyweights conclusively .. twice.
However, lets not get distracted by the fact the two recognised heavyweights in question were not great themselves, and atop a very weak division.
I hope Usyk now retires to cement his legacy forever.
Tyson Fury was a great Heavyweight Champion in my opinion. So yes, 2 wins over him are great.
Just because he can't get past Usyk, does not make Fury a bum. It's more of a statement on just how truly fantastic Usyk is, than it is a comment on Fury.
Of course not - its more to do with Fury having a very poor fight record. Lots have compared his record to Nic Valuev`s. Beating a very very old ATG and then losing to a former, significantly smaller, former cruiserweight champion .. and even more coincidentally, being wobbled badly in the process.
The Fury hype, just like the Wilder and AJ hype has been burst.
tonyevs wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 10:21
Usyk is without doubt now an ATG.
He beat the recognised best at Cruiserweight, and despite massive physical disadvantages, he beat the recognised two best heavyweights conclusively .. twice.
However, lets not get distracted by the fact the two recognised heavyweights in question were not great themselves, and atop a very weak division.
I hope Usyk now retires to cement his legacy forever.
Tyson Fury was a great Heavyweight Champion in my opinion. So yes, 2 wins over him are great.
Just because he can't get past Usyk, does not make Fury a bum. It's more of a statement on just how truly fantastic Usyk is, than it is a comment on Fury.
Of course not - its more to do with Fury having a very poor fight record. Lots have compared his record to Nic Valuev`s. Beating a very very old ATG and then losing to a former, significantly smaller, former cruiserweight champion .. and even more coincidentally, being wobbled badly in the process.
The Fury hype, just like the Wilder and AJ hype has been burst.
He's well above Valuev too. Tyson Fury's reign lasted for quite a number of years more than many Heavyweight Champions who are held in higher regard.
alpy come on, im waiting for you to educate these history ignorant suckas on how usyk's accomplishments at cruiser and now hw fail to match james toney's
Valuev and Fury are very different. For starters, Valuev never gets to win any title if he has remotely competent judges for either the Larry Donald or John Ruiz fights. Valuev also managed to make a very old and very shot Evander Holyfield appear young and vibrant again as one of his last acts in the sport. Fury might have struggled with Steve Cunningham, but he won that fight legitimately along with every other win he's had.
The Docker wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 17:00
Not an ATG for me at HW. Albeit not his fault he's by default had to fight a venerable bag of shit of opposition.
Is Rocky Marciano a Heavyweight ATG in your eyes? Just curious.
Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 22:28
Furys standing in history is definitely diminished
These losses and wilder looking like crap took the shine off those 2 wilder wins for sure
Down against an mma fighter
Life and death with wallin
He got cut badly against Wallin, but won the fight handily other than having a bad cut throughout the bout. The performance against Ngannou definitely is a weak showing no question with that.
