Evander Holyfield (Lewis 2) vs Oleksandr Usyk (Dubois 2)

[margaret thatcher]

we should be talking about his early hw fights when using the 2000 version of holyfield? erm oaky

which deep list of quality james toney wins should we be talking about when rating him over usyk? just one fight vs a top 10 opponent was enough for you there, not a single defense, unification, win over another top contender, etc. now you play the depth and quality of opposition card LOL

simple question then

whose cruiser career ranks higher, usyk's or toney?

straight up answer bruh

I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be.

[Ambling Alp II]

Never thought Toney was a legendary fighter at cruiserweight either. Certainly not as high as Holyfield. But at least he had the fight with Jirov, the 2nd most notable fight at the division. In a normal weight class, that would not be that important. But in the cruiserweight division there simply isn't much to pick from.

It's completely different comparing a guy with brief career at cruiser weight to other cruiserweights than it is comparing a guy with a brief career at heavyweights to all the heavyweights in history.

The cruiserweight division did not even exist until the late 1970s. And most good cruiserweights have a relatively brief time at cruiserweight before they move up to heavyweight.
That is a lot different than comparing a guy with 8 fights to Ali, Louis, Foreman, Marciano Frazier, Holmes, Lewis, Tyson etc. These guys (and many others) had way more than 8 fights and fought much better opposition and often looked good in doing so.

[Cojimar 1946]

Surely if Holyfield can lose 4 rounds to Mercer its acceptable for Usyk to drop 4 to Joshua/Fury. Mercer best wins are guys like Damiani and Morrison and he lost to Jesse Ferguson of all people and not even a prime version of Ferguson like say the one Tyson fought. Morrison was coming off a draw with Marion Wilson that most people had him losing.

Usyk's cruiserweight opponents are heavyweights by the standards of Holyfields era when the weight limit was 190 pounds so its reasonable to count them when assessing a fight between him and heavyweights of prior eras.

[margaret thatcher]

Never thought Toney was a legendary fighter at cruiserweight either. Certainly not as high as Holyfield. But at least he had the fight with Jirov, the 2nd most notable fight at the division. In a normal weight class, that would not be that important. But in the cruiserweight division there simply isn't much to pick from.

It's completely different comparing a guy with brief career at cruiser weight to other cruiserweights than it is comparing a guy with a brief career at heavyweights to all the heavyweights in history.

The cruiserweight division did not even exist until the late 1970s. And most good cruiserweights have a relatively brief time at cruiserweight before they move up to heavyweight.
That is a lot different than comparing a guy with 8 fights to Ali, Louis, Foreman, Marciano Frazier, Holmes, Lewis, Tyson etc. These guys (and many others) had way more than 8 fights and fought much better opposition and often looked good in doing so.

cruiser has been around almost 50 years, longer than holyfield, usyk, toney etc have been boxing professionally. there is plenty to go by. if you rate toney higher given the facts below you clearly give a f@ck all about depth, at least not enough to apply it consistently:

tony: 1 cruiser title win, 0 defenses, 0 unifications, 1 opponent beaten ranked top 10
usyk: 7 cruiser title wins, 6 defenses, 2 unifications, 6 opponents beaten ranked top 10

usyk clearly had far deeper cruiser record, yet it didn't matter at all to you there. but now you want to play the same card against him. you pick and choose your criteria inconsistently based on who you prefer as a fighter, which makes that criteria pretty useless when you apply it. you even changed it up to suddenly become a mega fan of slugfests and argued toney ahead of usyk because how entertaining toney-jirov was

btw, i'd bet you that even a guy like mike hunter would have beat jirov too, sure as hell fared better at hw than vassily did

come on alp, you still havent added your voice to the 41-3 vote viewtopic.php?t=257692

[margaret thatcher]

Surely if Holyfield can lose 4 rounds to Mercer its acceptable for Usyk to drop 4 to Joshua/Fury. Mercer best wins are guys like Damiani and Morrison and he lost to Jesse Ferguson of all people and not even a prime version of Ferguson like say the one Tyson fought. Morrison was coming off a draw with Marion Wilson that most people had him losing.

Usyk's cruiserweight opponents are heavyweights by the standards of Holyfields era when the weight limit was 190 pounds so its reasonable to count them when assessing a fight between him and heavyweights of prior eras.

loads of great fighters have been hurt, lost rounds, struggled with underwhelming opponents, it's true. ffs joe louis, argued by many as the greatest hw of all time, got his ass sat down and rocked multiple times by tony galento among other underwhelming opponents.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

You can only fight who is in front of you. Usyk has beat them all even when at a sizable disadvantage. That is the definition of greatness

[Ambling Alp II]

He wasn't at a size "disadvantage." They weighed a lot more than him. There is a difference.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Being taller and bigger doesnt equate with size in your world??

Your poor wife

[gilgamesh]

He wasn't at a size "disadvantage." They weighed a lot more than him. There is a difference.

Fury and Joshua both had a fair bit of height on him as well. Fury especially.

[Ambling Alp II]

My point about weight is that a certain point, weighing more stops being an advantage. At a later point, it becomes a disadvantage.

A guy weighing 160 (assuming he is in shape) has an advantage over a guy weighing 120.
A guy weighing 260 does not have an advantage over a guy weighing 220.

Fury would have been a better fighter had he weighed a lot less.
There is a reason why the heaviest fighter has never been the best fighter. Ever.

In football, you don't see quarterbacks that weight 170 pounds or 300 pounds. You don't see them at 5'8 or 7'0 tall either.
Same in boxing.

Height is a little different. However, at certain point is stops be an advantage too. A taller fighter is a bigger target. Well, Probably doesn't move as well. Taller fighters usually don't fight well on the inside. And they don't all know how utilize their height and reach.

[Cojimar 1946]

These days the majority of top 10 heavyweights are bigger than Usyk which suggests it isn't a disadvantage anymore or they wouldn't compromise the majority of the top 10.

If Fury was as bad as Alp seems to think I would expect plenty of guys in lower weight divisions would be trying to move up to heavyweight to fight him.

[gilgamesh]

These days the majority of top 10 heavyweights are bigger than Usyk which suggests it isn't a disadvantage anymore or they wouldn't compromise the majority of the top 10.

If Fury was as bad as Alp seems to think I would expect plenty of guys in lower weight divisions would be trying to move up to heavyweight to fight him.

Fury was one of the longer reigning Heavyweight Champions in history by the way. So he's hardly a pushover obviously.

In terms of Years as Champion, and Title Defenses he had more than most Heavyweight Champions.

[goose 5]

Fury made 3 successful title defenses and lost to Usyk in his 4th defense.

[gilgamesh]

Fury made 3 successful title defenses and lost to Usyk in his 4th defense.

He won the lineal title from Wladimir Klitschko

defended it 10 times over an 8 and a half year reign.

That's the way I count it up. I have that old school mentality that you can only take a Champions title away from him in the ring, not with the stroke of a pen or I suppose in the modern world. An email.

[Cojimar 1946]

He presumably lost his claim when he was inactive for 3 years. Otherwise Lewis could emerge from retirement claiming he was still the champ

[gilgamesh]

He presumably lost his claim when he was inactive for 3 years. Otherwise Lewis could emerge from retirement claiming he was still the champ

Well now that would just be ridiculous after 20 years time.

After 3 years time however wasn't even unprecedented by Heavyweight standards. I can understand why somebody would've considered him stripped of his Championship. I just never will be among those who agree with that.

[Ambling Alp II]

These days the majority of top 10 heavyweights are bigger than Usyk which suggests it isn't a disadvantage anymore or they wouldn't compromise the majority of the top 10.

If Fury was as bad as Alp seems to think I would expect plenty of guys in lower weight divisions would be trying to move up to heavyweight to fight him.

No. That Usyk is lighter than all of those guys suggests that at a certain point weight is a disadvantage. People think it is a advantage, doesn't mean it is so. In real life, when a really big heavyweight actually fights a quality lighter guy heavyweight, he usually loses.

Wilder has virtually no boxing ability. almost everyone admits this. He has a big punch and that's about it. Which of the Wilder-Fury fights was Wilder at his lightest? That would be the first fight, which was only a draw because the judges saved Fury. Wilder only weighed 212.5 for that fight.

[Cojimar 1946]

Usyks resume isn't based on Fury though he has plenty of other good wins. Fury's not the only guy he beat who could potentially beat Holyfield. So why focus on him?

I wouldn't put Wilder in this eras top 5, he's essentially this eras Ruddock who made his reputation bombing out a bunch of unranked guys and shot former contenders

[Ambling Alp II]

Wel Usyk has only 8 fights at heavyweight 2 were against Fury. Fury was probably the best that he fought. Therefore Fury has to be very relevant. Fury would not beat a prime Holyfield. Nor would anyone else that Usyk beat. (This is the part where you try to cherry pick Holyfield's career.)

My points about Wilder is this: Outside of power, he had basically nothing else. For several years, he certainly was one of the top 5 heavyweights in the world. That is how bad the heavyweight division has been. He was small. And at less than 213 pounds, he got a draw with Fury.

That Wilder was able to get a draw (should have been a decision win for Wilder) is a strong indication that Fury was not that good, even though he was the best heavyweight that Usyk has fought.

Given that an extremely fighter like Wilder can have this success against a grossly overweight fighter, it should make you rethink the weight "advantage" thing. And how good the heavy But I'm sure you won't.

[margaret thatcher]

usyk's record would be stronger if he had only one fight vs a top 10 guy at the weight, like toney did at cruiser, alp logic

[gilgamesh]

Even if you're making the argument that Fury and Anthony Joshua were too big, and just oafs or whatever. (They weren't, but it sounds like that's the argument you're making)

Usyk still has plenty of wins against guys his own size. He was dominant at Cruiserweight. He won the World Boxing Super Series beating several big names over the course of that Tournament, and becoming Undisputed Champion. When they had a 2nd one of those Tournaments in that weight class, Mairis Breidis, the person that Usyk had defeated in the Semi Finals won it. Breidis would easily be one of the Top 10 all time Cruiserweights, and Usyk beat him handily. Murat Gassiev wasn't too shabby either.

Then as a Heavyweight he's beaten opponents weighing anything from 233 to 281.

Any of his Cruiserweight opponents would've been considered small Heavyweights in Holyfield's Cruiserweight era since they adjusted the weight limit in that weight class.

[margaret thatcher]

Even if you're making the argument that Fury and Anthony Joshua were too big, and just oafs or whatever. (They weren't, but it sounds like that's the argument you're making)

Usyk still has plenty of wins against guys his own size. He was dominant at Cruiserweight. He won the World Boxing Super Series beating several big names over the course of that Tournament, and becoming Undisputed Champion. When they had a 2nd one of those Tournaments in that weight class, Mairis Breidis, the person that Usyk had defeated in the Semi Finals won it. Breidis would easily be one of the Top 10 all time Cruiserweights, and Usyk beat him handily. Murat Gassiev wasn't too shabby either.

Then as a Heavyweight he's beaten opponents weighing anything from 233 to 281.

Any of his Cruiserweight opponents would've been considered small Heavyweights in Holyfield's Cruiserweight era since they adjusted the weight limit in that weight class.

dominant at cruiser?

but alp rates james toney's cruiser career over usyk's and toney only beat 1 top 10 guy

[giacomino]

Even if you're making the argument that Fury and Anthony Joshua were too big, and just oafs or whatever. (They weren't, but it sounds like that's the argument you're making)

Usyk still has plenty of wins against guys his own size. He was dominant at Cruiserweight. He won the World Boxing Super Series beating several big names over the course of that Tournament, and becoming Undisputed Champion. When they had a 2nd one of those Tournaments in that weight class, Mairis Breidis, the person that Usyk had defeated in the Semi Finals won it. Breidis would easily be one of the Top 10 all time Cruiserweights, and Usyk beat him handily. Murat Gassiev wasn't too shabby either.

Then as a Heavyweight he's beaten opponents weighing anything from 233 to 281.

Any of his Cruiserweight opponents would've been considered small Heavyweights in Holyfield's Cruiserweight era since they adjusted the weight limit in that weight class.

No he didn’t. I am a Usyk fan but it was a close fight I had Usyk by a round, two at the most. Gassiev he beat handily.

[Cojimar 1946]

I'm sure some of the guys Usyk beat at cruiserweight could beat 90s contenders like Mercer or Bruno. The weight increase and early weight ins mean that some cruiserweights are as big as 90s heavyweights.
In one recent bout a cruiserweight entered the ring reportedly over 220 pounds.

As far Holyfield given he lost to Moorer you would have to give Joshua, Breidis, Hunter a good shot at beating him realistically

[gilgamesh]

Even if you're making the argument that Fury and Anthony Joshua were too big, and just oafs or whatever. (They weren't, but it sounds like that's the argument you're making)

Usyk still has plenty of wins against guys his own size. He was dominant at Cruiserweight. He won the World Boxing Super Series beating several big names over the course of that Tournament, and becoming Undisputed Champion. When they had a 2nd one of those Tournaments in that weight class, Mairis Breidis, the person that Usyk had defeated in the Semi Finals won it. Breidis would easily be one of the Top 10 all time Cruiserweights, and Usyk beat him handily. Murat Gassiev wasn't too shabby either.

Then as a Heavyweight he's beaten opponents weighing anything from 233 to 281.

Any of his Cruiserweight opponents would've been considered small Heavyweights in Holyfield's Cruiserweight era since they adjusted the weight limit in that weight class.

No he didn’t. I am a Usyk fan but it was a close fight I had Usyk by a round, two at the most. Gassiev he beat handily.

It wasn't controversial though was it? That was my point. I'd agree it's been probably his closest fight up to now.