Comparing Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard :What's more impressive:

[Ambling Alp II]

Early, in his career, (like just about everyone), Ali fought some journeyman while getting experience.
Then he soon fought good competition before getting a title shot. (Though Leonard fought even better pre-title competition. Yet more evidence that Leonard was also one of the Top 10 of all time)

After that, there were very few journeymen that Ali fought. No heavyweight fought nearly as good of competition as Ali. So there really aren't "plenty" for Hearns to have even fought, much less actually beat.

[keithmoonhangover]

Leonard had some fantastic wins, arguably the best three wins ever, although some of the true greats, like Robinson, Langford and Greb are in the same league.

[elmersalsa]

Leonard had some fantastic wins, arguably the best three wins ever, although some of the true greats, like Robinson, Langford and Greb are in the same league.

Harry Greb?

[keithmoonhangover]

Leonard had some fantastic wins, arguably the best three wins ever, although some of the true greats, like Robinson, Langford and Greb are in the same league.

Harry Greb?

Yeah, Harry Greb. One of the best boxers ever. I thought you would have known that.

[Expug]

Greb beat Mickey Walker , Tommy Loughran and Gene Tunney. All time greats.

[gilgamesh]

Greb beat Mickey Walker , Tommy Loughran and Gene Tunney. All time greats.

The only guy that EVER beat Gene Tunney in fact. He definitely faced the cream of the crop of his era. Many times over, and won much more than he lost.

[Cojimar 1946]

Early, in his career, (like just about everyone), Ali fought some journeyman while getting experience.
Then he soon fought good competition before getting a title shot. (Though Leonard fought even better pre-title competition. Yet more evidence that Leonard was also one of the Top 10 of all time)

After that, there were very few journeymen that Ali fought. No heavyweight fought nearly as good of competition as Ali. So there really aren't "plenty" for Hearns to have even fought, much less actually beat.

Lunbers, Coopman, Dunn, etc all seem like winnable fights.

Hearns might have a good shot against the Ali that fought Spinks

[elmersalsa]

Leonard had some fantastic wins, arguably the best three wins ever, although some of the true greats, like Robinson, Langford and Greb are in the same league.

Harry Greb?

Yeah, Harry Greb. One of the best boxers ever. I thought you would have known that.

Harry Greb was one of the most overrated boxers ever. Great fighter, though.

[elmersalsa]

Greb beat Mickey Walker , Tommy Loughran and Gene Tunney. All time greats.

What happened with the great Georgia Deacon, Tiger Flowers?

[keithmoonhangover]

Harry Greb?

Yeah, Harry Greb. One of the best boxers ever. I thought you would have known that.

Harry Greb was one of the most overrated boxers ever. Great fighter, though.

So he was great, but overrated?

[elmersalsa]

Yeah, Harry Greb. One of the best boxers ever. I thought you would have known that.

Harry Greb was one of the most overrated boxers ever. Great fighter, though.

So he was great, but overrated?

A lot of people are overrated. It depends who thinks who's overrated or not.

[keithmoonhangover]

Harry Greb was one of the most overrated boxers ever. Great fighter, though.

So he was great, but overrated?

A lot of people are overrated. It depends who thinks who's overrated or not.

But you think he was a 'great' fighter, so who do you think overrates him and how?

[Expug]

Greb beat Mickey Walker , Tommy Loughran and Gene Tunney. All time greats.

What happened with the great Georgia Deacon, Tiger Flowers?

What’s that got to do with anything? The three fighters I listed were all time greats. Period.

[Expug]

Greb dropped two very close decisions to Flowers in his 299 and 302 pro fights at 32 years of age. Blind in one eye.
He beat him earlier in his career on a newspaper win.
Eusebio Pedroza gets his ass kicked by Barry Mcguigan at 32 years old. Yet he’s an all time great.
He was past his prime and couldn’t be champ forever etc etc.

[elmersalsa]

Greb dropped two very close decisions to Flowers in his 299 and 302 pro fights at 32 years of age. Blind in one eye.
He beat him earlier in his career on a newspaper win.
Eusebio Pedroza gets his ass kicked by Barry Mcguigan at 32 years old. Yet he’s an all time great.
He was past his prime and couldn’t be champ forever etc etc.

Why are you bringing the great Eusebio Pedroza to the conversation? Does it bothered you that Harry Greb was called overrated? I think, yes.

That doesn't mean that he wasn't a great boxer. To me, he was overrated. To some, he was not. That happens to every boxer.

Barry McGuigan was definitely overrated, too. A lion in Great Britain. Take him out of Great Britain and he was a pussycat.

[gilgamesh]

Greb dropped two very close decisions to Flowers in his 299 and 302 pro fights at 32 years of age. Blind in one eye.
He beat him earlier in his career on a newspaper win.
Eusebio Pedroza gets his ass kicked by Barry Mcguigan at 32 years old. Yet he’s an all time great.
He was past his prime and couldn’t be champ forever etc etc.

Why are you bringing the great Eusebio Pedroza to the conversation? Does it bothered you that Harry Greb was called overrated? I think, yes.

That doesn't mean that he wasn't a great boxer. To me, he was overrated. To some, he was not. That happens to every boxer.

Barry McGuigan was definitely overrated, too. A lion in Great Britain. Take him out of Great Britain and he was a pussycat.

I do basically think that the Legends of the ring that we can really only assess through the writing and the myth should almost be put into a separate category in our minds from the standard greatest fighter of all time list.

Like these guys are like the "The Mythical Figures of Boxing" who will always be in the conversation somehow, but are difficult to properly rate given the lack of footage, and all that on them. We can go by what we've read, and what we learned, but rating them up against people from the modern era that we're able to be much more familiar with probably isn't fair to either fighter. The Legend or the More Modern one.

[Expug]

Greb dropped two very close decisions to Flowers in his 299 and 302 pro fights at 32 years of age. Blind in one eye.
He beat him earlier in his career on a newspaper win.
Eusebio Pedroza gets his ass kicked by Barry Mcguigan at 32 years old. Yet he’s an all time great.
He was past his prime and couldn’t be champ forever etc etc.

Why are you bringing the great Eusebio Pedroza to the conversation? Does it bothered you that Harry Greb was called overrated? I think, yes.

That doesn't mean that he wasn't a great boxer. To me, he was overrated. To some, he was not. That happens to every boxer.

Barry McGuigan was definitely overrated, too. A lion in Great Britain. Take him out of Great Britain and he was a pussycat.

Really doesn’t bother me at all that you’re the only person I’ve ever heard say he’s overrated but hey , whatever.
I’m pointing out the logic that you are using here as far as Greb losing to Flowers and that contributing to him being over rated yet Pedroza losing to Mcguigan is met with you saying he was 32 and past it. You brought up Tiger Flowers beating Greb. Well I’ll use your same logic. He was 32, had to lose eventually, do you not see how that’s contradictory?

[elmersalsa]

Greb dropped two very close decisions to Flowers in his 299 and 302 pro fights at 32 years of age. Blind in one eye.
He beat him earlier in his career on a newspaper win.
Eusebio Pedroza gets his ass kicked by Barry Mcguigan at 32 years old. Yet he’s an all time great.
He was past his prime and couldn’t be champ forever etc etc.

Why are you bringing the great Eusebio Pedroza to the conversation? Does it bothered you that Harry Greb was called overrated? I think, yes.

That doesn't mean that he wasn't a great boxer. To me, he was overrated. To some, he was not. That happens to every boxer.

Barry McGuigan was definitely overrated, too. A lion in Great Britain. Take him out of Great Britain and he was a pussycat.

Really doesn’t bother me at all that you’re the only person I’ve ever heard say he’s overrated but hey , whatever.
I’m pointing out the logic that you are using here as far as Greb losing to Flowers and that contributing to him being over rated yet Pedroza losing to Mcguigan is met with you saying he was 32 and past it. You brought up Tiger Flowers beating Greb. Well I’ll use your same logic. He was 32, had to lose eventually, do you not see how that’s contradictory?

I believe that you was hurt because I have said that Harry Greb was overrated. Bringing Eusebio Pedroza to the conversation didn't make sense to me.

[Expug]

Takes a helluva lot more to hurt me than someone saying Greb was overrated

[elmersalsa]

Takes a helluva lot more to hurt me than someone saying Greb was overrated

I believe you. I don't understand why you mentioned Eusebio Pedroza.

[Expug]

We had a discussion awhile back about Pedroza losing to Mcguigan. You mentioned that Pedroza was past it at 32 and had been champion a long time. It was his time to lose. You have him as an all time great. Your logic is fair enough.
You brought up Greb losing to Flowers and he’s overrated.
I’m saying it’s a very similar situation with Greb the same age , probably slipping after 300 fights.
If Pedroza shouldn’t be judged negatively for losing to Mcguigan, Greb shouldn’t be judged negatively for losing to Flowers.
That’s a standard of reason you put forth. That’s it.

[elmersalsa]

We had a discussion awhile back about Pedroza losing to Mcguigan. You mentioned that Pedroza was past it at 32 and had been champion a long time. It was his time to lose. You have him as an all time great. Your logic is fair enough.
You brought up Greb losing to Flowers and he’s overrated.
I’m saying it’s a very similar situation with Greb the same age , probably slipping after 300 fights.
If Pedroza shouldn’t be judged negatively for losing to Mcguigan, Greb shouldn’t be judged negatively for losing to Flowers.
That’s a standard of reason you put forth. That’s it.

Okay. Fair enough. I believe that Harry Greb was a great boxer. He was ten times better in the concept of boxing accomplishments. Greb had 300 fights. That's enough to qualify him as an all time great.

Eusebio Pedroza was a featherweight all time great. Is he a top 100 pound per pound great? Yes. His record shows that he had 20 title defenses in 7 years. But, he is disdained by some because of a reputation as a dirty fighter. I think that was unfair criticism. The guy was the most complete boxer that I have ever seen. The slick and utterly confident Panamanian could fight. He could do it all.

[Ambling Alp II]

Takes a helluva lot more to hurt me than someone saying Greb was overrated

Greb was one of the very best of all time. He is right there with Robinson, Langford, Charles, Armstrong, and of course Ali and Leonard.

[Seamus]

Forgot Willie Pep.

[Ambling Alp II]

Nope, Pep isn't in this class. He beat Saddler, Manuel Ortiz, and then .....
Had he beat Sammy Angott, you might have a case. But he lost. Obviously, Pep was a great fighter. But when you are comparing someone to the very best in well over 120 years of the sport, you really have to beat more great fighters.