How good is Tyson fury actually?

[gilgamesh]

Is this a joke?

It's very easy to list 40 heavyweights who would beat Deontay Wilder. I could probably name a 100.

Could you?

I'm pretty sure what you'd come up with is a list of about 45 guys that Wilder would definitely beat, 30 guys that he might beat, and 25 guys that he couldn't beat.

I know you only got into boxing in the 2000s but even you should know it's easy to list a 100 heavyweights superior to Bermaine Stiverne and Luis Ortiz.

Wilder can't box, has no jab, no hook, can't punch in combination, is ungainly and chinny. That's why his team protected him. He isn't beating anyone decent.

Yes I did get into Boxing in the 2000's. I've also delved into Boxing history probably harder than most people that ever live to be quite honest because my brain is just wired that way.

I've watched hours and hours and hours and hours of Heavyweight Boxing. I've watched almost every noteworthy Heavyweight you can name in multiple fights.

The list of guys you could come up of men who punched harder at Heavyweight than Wilder is a very, very short one, and that punch is going to allow him to win a lot of fights over better, more talented men. He'd lose his share of course as well. There's some guys he'd never beat if you gave him 20 tries, but I don't think that applies to very many.

[Riddick Bowie]

Could you?

I'm pretty sure what you'd come up with is a list of about 45 guys that Wilder would definitely beat, 30 guys that he might beat, and 25 guys that he couldn't beat.

I know you only got into boxing in the 2000s but even you should know it's easy to list a 100 heavyweights superior to Bermaine Stiverne and Luis Ortiz.

Wilder can't box, has no jab, no hook, can't punch in combination, is ungainly and chinny. That's why his team protected him. He isn't beating anyone decent.

Yes I did get into Boxing in the 2000's. I've also delved into Boxing history probably harder than most people that ever live to be quite honest because my brain is just wired that way.

I've watched hours and hours and hours and hours of Heavyweight Boxing. I've watched almost every noteworthy Heavyweight you can name in multiple fights.

The list of guys you could come up of men who punched harder at Heavyweight than Wilder is a very, very short one, and that punch is going to allow him to win a lot of fights over better, more talented men. He'd lose his share of course as well. There's some guys he'd never beat if you gave him 20 tries, but I don't think that applies to very many.

And after all that studying you can only name "25 guys" that could beat Deontay Wilder?

I think you were studying the wrong weight division.

[Riddick Bowie]

Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams, Mike Weaver, Michael Spinks, James Smith, Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas, Gerry Cooney, Trevor Berbick. You could even throw in there a James Broad and Michael Dokes.

I can't see him beating any one of them, personally and I have watched them and I have watched him.

All those men obviously beat Deontay Wilder. The eye test alone tells you that. The only chinny guy there is Carl Williams, but his kryptonite was the left hook, a punch Wilder doesn't have in his arsenal.

Add Tony Tubbs who would box his ears off. John Tate and Gerrie Coetzee KO him. Renaldo Snipes is better than anyone Wilder ever beat.

Wilder was a liability in the ring. That's why he was carefully protected and couldn't defend himself against Fury. It's why Parker and Zhang walked through him. Parker and Zhang were levels above the hapless tomato cans they fed him when he was 'champ' and we saw how useless he is against someone with a bit of nous.

[Nightmare Roy]

Decent, you have Lewis and then its probably between AJ and Fury for runner up in the UK HW's

[gilgamesh]

I know you only got into boxing in the 2000s but even you should know it's easy to list a 100 heavyweights superior to Bermaine Stiverne and Luis Ortiz.

Wilder can't box, has no jab, no hook, can't punch in combination, is ungainly and chinny. That's why his team protected him. He isn't beating anyone decent.

Yes I did get into Boxing in the 2000's. I've also delved into Boxing history probably harder than most people that ever live to be quite honest because my brain is just wired that way.

I've watched hours and hours and hours and hours of Heavyweight Boxing. I've watched almost every noteworthy Heavyweight you can name in multiple fights.

The list of guys you could come up of men who punched harder at Heavyweight than Wilder is a very, very short one, and that punch is going to allow him to win a lot of fights over better, more talented men. He'd lose his share of course as well. There's some guys he'd never beat if you gave him 20 tries, but I don't think that applies to very many.

And after all that studying you can only name "25 guys" that could beat Deontay Wilder?

I think you were studying the wrong weight division.

There's plenty of guys that could maybe beat Wilder, but he'd have just as good a chance at beating them as they would him. He'd have oodles of matchups where his puncher's chance bailed him out against an otherwise better opponent. He'd have oodles of matchups against guys that were too tough for him.

There's probably a 300 or so guys throughout Boxing history that could've beaten him. Hell maybe more, but there's not 300 more Heavyweights who are more accomplished.

There's not 50 either.

If all the Heavyweights that ever lived fought all the contenders that ever lived they'd all wind up with a hell of a lot more losses than they racked up fighting in their actual time.

[Kilburn]

Fury has shown decent footwork and upper body movement for a big man, but I honestly don’t think it would have impressed many of the big names from past, any more than it did Usyk. Fury has been very good for this era, but his career would have surely been much shorter and more painful, had he been routinely facing some of the best we’ve ever seen.

Wilder doesn’t belong anywhere near the conversation that’s for sure.

[gilgamesh]

Fury has shown decent footwork and upper body movement for a big man, but I honestly don’t think it would have impressed many of the big names from past, any more than it did Usyk. Fury has been very good for this era, but his career would have surely been much shorter and more painful, had he been routinely facing some of the best we’ve ever seen.

Wilder doesn’t belong anywhere near the conversation that’s for sure.

Fury would probably legit be a Top 20 all time Heavyweight or thereabouts. Anthony Joshua would be a notch or two below him I think.

If Fury and Joshua give people the biggest U.K. Heavyweight fight of all time it'll boost both of their legacies a bit. Obviously it'd be a big notch on the belt of the winner of that belt. It'd be a horrible shame if it doesn't happen. One of the biggest missed opportunities in Boxing history.

[a force]

It’s hard to know how good Fury is / was as his whole career has an asterisk at the side of it because he is a drug cheat.

The truth is he never looked world level before the Chisora rematch & he popped for nandrolone soon after.

Since then he was named as a client of Dr Uz who was the testosterone specialist that Conor Benn worked with.

[keithmoonhangover]

It’s hard to know how good Fury is / was as his whole career has an asterisk at the side of it because he is a drug cheat.

The truth is he never looked world level before the Chisora rematch & he popped for nandrolone soon after.

Since then he was named as a client of Dr Uz who was the testosterone specialist that Conor Benn worked with.

This. I was a big fan until he turned out to be a dirty cheating bastard

[gilgamesh]

It’s hard to know how good Fury is / was as his whole career has an asterisk at the side of it because he is a drug cheat.

The truth is he never looked world level before the Chisora rematch & he popped for nandrolone soon after.

Since then he was named as a client of Dr Uz who was the testosterone specialist that Conor Benn worked with.

Everyone's on supplements. They make a big deal out of it for some, and ignore it for others.

Tyson Fury never had a result overturned because of a failed drug test. To me you can question the entire testing procedure, and the people running it. So I don't take any of that stuff seriously.

You think Usyk doesn't take some sorta supplement in his year off between fights? Don't be naive.

[gilgamesh]

It’s hard to know how good Fury is / was as his whole career has an asterisk at the side of it because he is a drug cheat.

The truth is he never looked world level before the Chisora rematch & he popped for nandrolone soon after.

Since then he was named as a client of Dr Uz who was the testosterone specialist that Conor Benn worked with.

This. I was a big fan until he turned out to be a dirty cheating bastard

I've never been a fan. I just hold the same values across the board. Steroids or PED's flat out DO NOT MATTER to me, and I don't fault any athlete in any sport for using them.

I suspect at the highest level. The amount of guys that aren't on something is probably like 25 to 30%

[Taansend]

[/quote]

He didn't lose the first fight with Fury. It was a draw.

[/quote]

Yeah, he did. He lost 9 rounds.

[gilgamesh]

He didn't lose the first fight with Fury. It was a draw.

[/quote]

Yeah, he did. He lost 9 rounds.
[/quote]

I think I had Fury winning as well narrowly, but when you get dropped twice I don't have much sympathy for you when you don't get the decision.

If Fury could've managed to stay on his feet in the 12th round he'd have won. He couldn't manage it.

[a force]

It’s hard to know how good Fury is / was as his whole career has an asterisk at the side of it because he is a drug cheat.

The truth is he never looked world level before the Chisora rematch & he popped for nandrolone soon after.

Since then he was named as a client of Dr Uz who was the testosterone specialist that Conor Benn worked with.

Everyone's on supplements. They make a big deal out of it for some, and ignore it for others.

Tyson Fury never had a result overturned because of a failed drug test. To me you can question the entire testing procedure, and the people running it. So I don't take any of that stuff seriously.

You think Usyk doesn't take some sorta supplement in his year off between fights? Don't be naive.

It’s not a supplement it’s an anabolic steroid. Him & his cousin Hughie were both going abroad to train with Peter Fury & when they came back they both popped positive for nandrolone.

They tried to get out of it with the ridiculous wild boar excuse.

[gilgamesh]

Well it never really affected his career much. He didn't have any results overturned. To me it's a very minor story in his career. If it's a big deal, and a detriment to his career for you.

I hope you hold Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, Shane Mosley, and Canelo Alvarez to the same standard, and don't just hold it against somebody when you're not rooting for him.

I find it easier to just ignore it across the board personally. I can't keep up with who's taken what, and I don't care to.

Your Boxing career to me is what happens from bell to bell. Any of the other stuff outside the ring is an insignificant part of the story.

[Frostieballs]

Wilder isn't that great, but he's better than some give him credit for at the same time. He'd probably legitimately be a Top 30 or Top 40 all time Heavyweight which is nothing to scoff at in a sport that has existed as long as Boxing has.

I can’t see that mate. No way a top 30/40 heavyweight of all time. I could name that many just from the 80’s/90’s.

A few years ago, before his decline, I said he was European level at best and compared his level to Gary Mason’s.

I took quite a lot of stick at the time, but stand by it!

Who could you name from the 80's that's better than Wilder besides Tyson and Holmes?

This must be a wind-up. I also said the 90’s. Why do you hold Wilder in so much regard?

Is it the trilogy with Fury - because there is nothing else on his record?

Fury only came in against Wilder in decent shape once - and decimated him.

[Riddick Bowie]

I can’t see that mate. No way a top 30/40 heavyweight of all time. I could name that many just from the 80’s/90’s.

A few years ago, before his decline, I said he was European level at best and compared his level to Gary Mason’s.

I took quite a lot of stick at the time, but stand by it!

Who could you name from the 80's that's better than Wilder besides Tyson and Holmes?

This must be a wind-up. I also said the 90’s. Why do you hold Wilder in so much regard?

Is it the trilogy with Fury - because there is nothing else on his record?

Fury only came in against Wilder in decent shape once - and decimated him.

I assume Gilgamesh needs to believe Wilder is better than he is to boost Fury's credentials.

It's either that or he's as clueless about boxing as most of Wilder's opponents were. He thinks the only men in the 80s who could beat him are Tyson and Holmes? Probably one of the worst takes ever shared on Boxrec. Again: a man who can't box, has no jab, can't hook or combination punch, has awful footwork, is uncoordinated AND chinny. Literally every man who held a belt in the 80s is too tough and has way too much ability for him. I honestly think James Broad would walk him down.

[Boxerbeetle]

Well it never really affected his career much. He didn't have any results overturned. To me it's a very minor story in his career. If it's a big deal, and a detriment to his career for you.

I hope you hold Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, Shane Mosley, and Canelo Alvarez to the same standard, and don't just hold it against somebody when you're not rooting for him.

I find it easier to just ignore it across the board personally. I can't keep up with who's taken what, and I don't care to.

Your Boxing career to me is what happens from bell to bell. Any of the other stuff outside the ring is an insignificant part of the story.

Agreed. Plus what are the chances of Joshua and the recently much-improved Parker being genuinely clean? And we all know about Whyte’s many issues with the testers. They’re nearly all on it, whether the useless drug agencies manage to catch them or not.

[high tower 1]

Could have been a top 20 all time heavyweight if he was actually interested and fought regularly. Big heart , great skills and massive.

His problem was he was lazy and had major lifestyle issues.

[gilgamesh]

I can’t see that mate. No way a top 30/40 heavyweight of all time. I could name that many just from the 80’s/90’s.

A few years ago, before his decline, I said he was European level at best and compared his level to Gary Mason’s.

I took quite a lot of stick at the time, but stand by it!

Who could you name from the 80's that's better than Wilder besides Tyson and Holmes?

This must be a wind-up. I also said the 90’s. Why do you hold Wilder in so much regard?

Is it the trilogy with Fury - because there is nothing else on his record?

Fury only came in against Wilder in decent shape once - and decimated him.

I don't hold Wilder in high regard. I judge him accurately. You don't.

[gilgamesh]

Well it never really affected his career much. He didn't have any results overturned. To me it's a very minor story in his career. If it's a big deal, and a detriment to his career for you.

I hope you hold Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, Shane Mosley, and Canelo Alvarez to the same standard, and don't just hold it against somebody when you're not rooting for him.

I find it easier to just ignore it across the board personally. I can't keep up with who's taken what, and I don't care to.

Your Boxing career to me is what happens from bell to bell. Any of the other stuff outside the ring is an insignificant part of the story.

Agreed. Plus what are the chances of Joshua and the recently much-improved Parker being genuinely clean? And we all know about Whyte’s many issues with the testers. They’re nearly all on it, whether the useless drug agencies manage to catch them or not.

Yeah I strongly suspect Parker is on something now too. He's like 30 pounds bigger, and suddenly better than he's ever been in his mid 30's. That's not odd at all

[NazNaci1]

Parker definitely has to be on 'something'.

[gilgamesh]

Who could you name from the 80's that's better than Wilder besides Tyson and Holmes?

This must be a wind-up. I also said the 90’s. Why do you hold Wilder in so much regard?

Is it the trilogy with Fury - because there is nothing else on his record?

Fury only came in against Wilder in decent shape once - and decimated him.

I assume Gilgamesh needs to believe Wilder is better than he is to boost Fury's credentials.

It's either that or he's as clueless about boxing as most of Wilder's opponents were. He thinks the only men in the 80s who could beat him are Tyson and Holmes? Probably one of the worst takes ever shared on Boxrec. Again: a man who can't box, has no jab, can't hook or combination punch, has awful footwork, is uncoordinated AND chinny. Literally every man who held a belt in the 80s is too tough and has way too much ability for him. I honestly think James Broad would walk him down.

Let me clarify. I didn't mean Holmes and Tyson are the only men of the 80's that could BEAT him. I meant they were the only 2 men of the 80's who had a better career, and that is an undeniable fact of goddamn life.

Spoon had a good chin, and a solid overhand right. I think he'd be able to beat Wilder. Bonecrusher Smith probably would've had a realistic shot at him as he was a big imposing guy himself, and could take a shot pretty well.

I wouldn't doubt Tucker could outbox Wilder quite comfortably.

I do think Wilder would knock out Greg Page, Trevor Berbick and Tony Tubbs.

Also. Why would I attempt to boost Fury's credentials? I'm not a fan, if he and AJ were to fight I'd be rooting for AJ to spark him, and I'm not a fan of AJ either

[tiny_acres]

This must be a wind-up. I also said the 90’s. Why do you hold Wilder in so much regard?

Is it the trilogy with Fury - because there is nothing else on his record?

Fury only came in against Wilder in decent shape once - and decimated him.

I assume Gilgamesh needs to believe Wilder is better than he is to boost Fury's credentials.

It's either that or he's as clueless about boxing as most of Wilder's opponents were. He thinks the only men in the 80s who could beat him are Tyson and Holmes? Probably one of the worst takes ever shared on Boxrec. Again: a man who can't box, has no jab, can't hook or combination punch, has awful footwork, is uncoordinated AND chinny. Literally every man who held a belt in the 80s is too tough and has way too much ability for him. I honestly think James Broad would walk him down.

Again. You don't pay attention to my words. I didn't say Holmes and Tyson are the only men of the 80's that could BEAT him. I said they were the only 2 men of the 80's who had a better career, and that is an undeniable fact of goddamn life.

Spoon had a good chin, and a solid overhand right. I think he'd be able to beat Wilder. Bonecrusher Smith probably would've had a realistic shot at him as he was a big imposing guy himself, and could take a shot pretty well.

I wouldn't doubt Tucker could outbox Wilder quite comfortably.

I do think Wilder would knock out Greg Page, Trevor Berbick and Tony Tubbs.

Also. Why would I attempt to boost Fury's credentials? I'm not a fan, if he and AJ were to fight I'd be rooting for AJ to spark him, and I'm not a fan of AJ either

If Fury and AJ were to fight I'd root for a double knock out
Both of them need to call it a career

[Boxerbeetle]

Wilder is almost the dictionary definition of having a “puncher’s chance” but his overall skill level is abysmal and was exposed every single time he stepped up in opposition. Even Ortiz won basically every second of every round against him before getting lazy. Wilder would have had a very similar career to Bruno in the 80s, but the current proliferation of titles and the constant cherry-picking of opponents meant he could hang on to the claim of being champion for far longer than he should have been able to.