Comparing Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard :What's more impressive:

[Expug]

On Saddler… I’ve got him as the best featherweight ever.
After watching a lot of footage on him, I saw a guy that was such an overwhelming physical fighter who imposed his will on his opponents. He would’ve been a monster to fight.
I don’t know where he ranks overall but one thing for sure , he was a fighters fighter man.

[gilgamesh]

Nope, Pep isn't in this class. He beat Saddler, Manuel Ortiz, and then .....
Had he beat Sammy Angott, you might have a case. But he lost. Obviously, Pep was a great fighter. But when you are comparing someone to the very best in well over 120 years of the sport, you really have to beat more great fighters.

Plus he lost 3 out of 4 with Saddler

[elmersalsa]

Takes a helluva lot more to hurt me than someone saying Greb was overrated

Greb was one of the very best of all time. He is right there with Robinson, Langford, Charles, Armstrong, and of course Ali and Leonard.

Overrated as fuuck

[keithmoonhangover]

Takes a helluva lot more to hurt me than someone saying Greb was overrated

Greb was one of the very best of all time. He is right there with Robinson, Langford, Charles, Armstrong, and of course Ali and Leonard.

Overrated as fuuck

Who Greb? Where do you rate him?

[elmersalsa]

Greb was one of the very best of all time. He is right there with Robinson, Langford, Charles, Armstrong, and of course Ali and Leonard.

Overrated as fuuck

Who Greb? Where do you rate him?

Top 10. Not top 5 by any means.

At middleweight, top 5.

[keithmoonhangover]

Overrated as fuuck

Who Greb? Where do you rate him?

Top 10. Not top 5 by any means.

At middleweight, top 5.

Top 10 p4p?

[gilgamesh]

If you could honestly be considered one of the Top 10, Top 20, Top 50 or Top 500 of all time in the sport of Boxing with it's Rich history. You've had a hell of a career. If the worst you could possibly say about him is he's Top 10, and an all time Top 5 Middleweight.

Why sling sh*t at him.

I do kinda get the resentment of constantly seeing these mythical untouchable guys in the discussion of all time greats because their achievements are unmatchable in modern times.

[Ambling Alp II]

The resentment is from people who think the world began the day they were born. some people are like that and some people are not. The great fighter's feats are potentially matchable if someone is not only good enough but willing to take on the best around them. And beat them and look good in doing it.

[gilgamesh]

The resentment is from people who think the world began the day they were born. some people are like that and some people are not. The great fighter's feats are potentially matchable if someone is not only good enough but willing to take on the best around them. And beat them and look good in doing it.

You could ultimately beat the same amount of great fighters. I doubt you'd ever see another fight have 200 plus fights in their career. That's the kinda thing that is unmatchable about these old time fighters, the sheer amount of fights they had. No way in hell you'll ever see another great fighter fight that many fights again in our lifetime.

I don't think you really could fight 200 fights anymore if you wanted to honestly. There's not as many cards happening around the world as there was at one time.

[Ambling Alp II]

You don't have to have 200 fights. You can have 40 or 50. Doesn't matter how many stiffs you beat. But you have to go out of your way beat the best around. And do it impressively. Not talking about a Floyd Mayweather who carefully waits for the right time to beat big-name opponents.
For example, De La hoya went out of way to fight quality competition. He just wasn't quite great enough to win enough. Had he beat all those guys, then he would be considered one of the very best. However, there simply are many like him in the last 20-30 years or so.

[gilgamesh]

You don't have to have 200 fights. You can have 40 or 50. Doesn't matter how many stiffs you beat. But you have to go out of your way beat the best around. And do it impressively. Not talking about a Floyd Mayweather who carefully waits for the right time to beat big-name opponents.
For example, De La hoya went out of way to fight quality competition. He just wasn't quite great enough to win enough. Had he beat all those guys, then he would be considered one of the very best. However, there simply are many like him in the last 20-30 years or so.

De La Hoya definitely was the ideal of you'd want in the big stars of the sport as far as facing the best of the best no doubt about that.

I think Floyd deserves more credit than he generally gets for the competition he faced. He's mainly a victim of just winning in rather dull and unimpressive fashion, which is definitely a detriment to your career certainly. We all watch sports to be entertained so Mike Tyson knocking out a Trevor Berbick is going to thrill you more than Floyd Mayweather winning a one sided decision over a Juan Manuel Marquez even though Marquez is the more impressive talent to have beaten.

[goose 5]

Good question regarding total bouts, especially when looking at greats with absurd amounts of wins.

[Cojimar 1946]

You don't have to have 200 fights. You can have 40 or 50. Doesn't matter how many stiffs you beat. But you have to go out of your way beat the best around. And do it impressively. Not talking about a Floyd Mayweather who carefully waits for the right time to beat big-name opponents.
For example, De La hoya went out of way to fight quality competition. He just wasn't quite great enough to win enough. Had he beat all those guys, then he would be considered one of the very best. However, there simply are many like him in the last 20-30 years or so.

Who were all these big-name opponents Floyd was supposed to fight at a different time? Most of them were fighting in different weight divisions from Floyd at their best making it impossible for him to fight them at their peak.

[gilgamesh]

You don't have to have 200 fights. You can have 40 or 50. Doesn't matter how many stiffs you beat. But you have to go out of your way beat the best around. And do it impressively. Not talking about a Floyd Mayweather who carefully waits for the right time to beat big-name opponents.
For example, De La hoya went out of way to fight quality competition. He just wasn't quite great enough to win enough. Had he beat all those guys, then he would be considered one of the very best. However, there simply are many like him in the last 20-30 years or so.

Who were all these big-name opponents Floyd was supposed to fight at a different time? Most of them were fighting in different weight divisions from Floyd at their best making it impossible for him to fight them at their peak.

The biggest names he missed really are Joel Casamayor, Acelino Freitas, Kostya Tszyu and Antonio Margarito I guess. Not really anyone else that would've been a big name fight that he didn't fight, and honestly the ones he did fight are bigger names than the ones he didn't.

It is of course a shame though that he didn't fight Pacquiao between 2009-2011 when it would've been best.

[Ambling Alp II]

Pacquaio is obviously the big one. That fight should have been fought way before it was. If you take a careful look at who Mayweather beat, you will see that there is not one win over a great fighter who was still great when he fought them. Not one. however, his fanbase carefully word things in a way that makes it look like he was fighting competition throughout his career.

But if you go one at a time, look looking at where the opponent was in his career, you will that all the best ones were past their best when Mayweather fought them. Every single one of them.

Pacquaio actually fought much better competition. Overall, he also did better against the greats than DLH, not to say that DLH never beat anyone good.

[gilgamesh]

Pacquaio is obviously the big one. That fight should have been fought way before it was. If you take a careful look at who Mayweather beat, you will see that there is not one win over a great fighter who was still great when he fought them. Not one. however, his fanbase carefully word things in a way that makes it look like he was fighting competition throughout his career.

But if you go one at a time, look looking at where the opponent was in his career, you will that all the best ones were past their best when Mayweather fought them. Every single one of them.

Pacquaio actually fought much better competition. Overall, he also did better against the greats than DLH, not to say that DLH never beat anyone good.

I agree Pacquiao fought better competition overall. In all fairness to Mayweather he was calling out the likes of De La Hoya and Mosley as early as 2003 he just wasn't getting any invitation to the big fight party yet, and at that time they held all the cards in terms of marketability.

Would've been a lot more interesting to see him fight those guys in that time for sure. I don't think De La Hoya fought at all in 2005.

[Cojimar 1946]

You don't have to have 200 fights. You can have 40 or 50. Doesn't matter how many stiffs you beat. But you have to go out of your way beat the best around. And do it impressively. Not talking about a Floyd Mayweather who carefully waits for the right time to beat big-name opponents.
For example, De La hoya went out of way to fight quality competition. He just wasn't quite great enough to win enough. Had he beat all those guys, then he would be considered one of the very best. However, there simply are many like him in the last 20-30 years or so.

Who were all these big-name opponents Floyd was supposed to fight at a different time? Most of them were fighting in different weight divisions from Floyd at their best making it impossible for him to fight them at their peak.

The biggest names he missed really are Joel Casamayor, Acelino Freitas, Kostya Tszyu and Antonio Margarito I guess. Not really anyone else that would've been a big name fight that he didn't fight, and honestly the ones he did fight are bigger names than the ones he didn't.

It is of course a shame though that he didn't fight Pacquiao between 2009-2011 when it would've been best.

He was only at 140 for 3 fights so Tszyu is obviously out. Margarito, Freitas and Casamayor were no better than multiple guys he did beat so hard to see how not fighting them is an issue beyond missing some ranked contenders.

Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis, and Bowe all missed out on Tim Witherspoon but people don't make a big deal out of it

[gilgamesh]

Who were all these big-name opponents Floyd was supposed to fight at a different time? Most of them were fighting in different weight divisions from Floyd at their best making it impossible for him to fight them at their peak.

The biggest names he missed really are Joel Casamayor, Acelino Freitas, Kostya Tszyu and Antonio Margarito I guess. Not really anyone else that would've been a big name fight that he didn't fight, and honestly the ones he did fight are bigger names than the ones he didn't.

It is of course a shame though that he didn't fight Pacquiao between 2009-2011 when it would've been best.

He was only at 140 for 3 fights so Tszyu is obviously out. Margarito, Freitas and Casamayor were no better than multiple guys he did beat so hard to see how not fighting them is an issue beyond missing some ranked contenders.

Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis, and Bowe all missed out on Tim Witherspoon but people don't make a big deal out of it

Right. Like I mentioned, the fights he did fight are bigger than the ones he didn't.

Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis and Bowe all would've beat Witherspoon. Holyfield probably would've had the closest fight with him.

[keithmoonhangover]

You don't have to have 200 fights. You can have 40 or 50. Doesn't matter how many stiffs you beat. But you have to go out of your way beat the best around. And do it impressively. Not talking about a Floyd Mayweather who carefully waits for the right time to beat big-name opponents.
For example, De La hoya went out of way to fight quality competition. He just wasn't quite great enough to win enough. Had he beat all those guys, then he would be considered one of the very best. However, there simply are many like him in the last 20-30 years or so.

Who were all these big-name opponents Floyd was supposed to fight at a different time? Most of them were fighting in different weight divisions from Floyd at their best making it impossible for him to fight them at their peak.

GGG. Henry Armstrong went from feather to middle. ODLH went from super feather to middle. Floyd didn't have any interest in taking on Golovkin, because he was too busy fighting a kick boxer.

[Cojimar 1946]

You don't have to have 200 fights. You can have 40 or 50. Doesn't matter how many stiffs you beat. But you have to go out of your way beat the best around. And do it impressively. Not talking about a Floyd Mayweather who carefully waits for the right time to beat big-name opponents.
For example, De La hoya went out of way to fight quality competition. He just wasn't quite great enough to win enough. Had he beat all those guys, then he would be considered one of the very best. However, there simply are many like him in the last 20-30 years or so.

Who were all these big-name opponents Floyd was supposed to fight at a different time? Most of them were fighting in different weight divisions from Floyd at their best making it impossible for him to fight them at their peak.

GGG. Henry Armstrong went from feather to middle. ODLH went from super feather to middle. Floyd didn't have any interest in taking on Golovkin, because he was too busy fighting a kick boxer.

Floyd never fought at middleweight and was under zero obligation to do so. He was also giving away a lot of size at welterweight being outweighed in most of his fights.

[keithmoonhangover]

Who were all these big-name opponents Floyd was supposed to fight at a different time? Most of them were fighting in different weight divisions from Floyd at their best making it impossible for him to fight them at their peak.

GGG. Henry Armstrong went from feather to middle. ODLH went from super feather to middle. Floyd didn't have any interest in taking on Golovkin, because he was too busy fighting a kick boxer.

Floyd never fought at middleweight and was under zero obligation to do so. He was also giving away a lot of size at welterweight being outweighed in most of his fights.

That's right. Just like he was under zero obligation to move up to any of the weight. He bottled it.

[gilgamesh]

You don't have to have 200 fights. You can have 40 or 50. Doesn't matter how many stiffs you beat. But you have to go out of your way beat the best around. And do it impressively. Not talking about a Floyd Mayweather who carefully waits for the right time to beat big-name opponents.
For example, De La hoya went out of way to fight quality competition. He just wasn't quite great enough to win enough. Had he beat all those guys, then he would be considered one of the very best. However, there simply are many like him in the last 20-30 years or so.

Who were all these big-name opponents Floyd was supposed to fight at a different time? Most of them were fighting in different weight divisions from Floyd at their best making it impossible for him to fight them at their peak.

GGG. Henry Armstrong went from feather to middle. ODLH went from super feather to middle. Floyd didn't have any interest in taking on Golovkin, because he was too busy fighting a kick boxer.

I believe like half of Floyd's total fights are Championship fights. That's not a small feat. He has a small handful of great fighters on his ledger, but a sh*t ton of good or very good ones. A lot more than most have.

It's a shame he didn't fight Pacquiao in 2009-2011. It woud've been cool to see him try Sergio Martinez or GGG. But the 2 primary weight classes he competed in in his career he was the dominant force in. Anytime he ever seemed like he was in trouble he'd figure it out, and adjust his style to the opponent and take over. The guy was a great tactical boxer. One of the very best.

He's not thrilling to watch most of the time, but he had his moments, and he'd be a hard matchup for most you could match him with throughout history.

[Cojimar 1946]

GGG. Henry Armstrong went from feather to middle. ODLH went from super feather to middle. Floyd didn't have any interest in taking on Golovkin, because he was too busy fighting a kick boxer.

Floyd never fought at middleweight and was under zero obligation to do so. He was also giving away a lot of size at welterweight being outweighed in most of his fights.

That's right. Just like he was under zero obligation to move up to any of the weight. He bottled it.

For a guy who started at 130 he did great. Leonard never fought at light heavyweight so why expect Mayweather to go all the way to middleweight?

De La Hoya didn't accomplish anything at middleweight so he seems like a strange example

[keithmoonhangover]

Floyd never fought at middleweight and was under zero obligation to do so. He was also giving away a lot of size at welterweight being outweighed in most of his fights.

That's right. Just like he was under zero obligation to move up to any of the weight. He bottled it.

For a guy who started at 130 he did great. Leonard never fought at light heavyweight so why expect Mayweather to go all the way to middleweight?

De La Hoya didn't accomplish anything at middleweight so he seems like a strange example

But he tried, Cojimar, he tried. So did Armstrong. Mr Mayweather didn't fancy it. He wanted nothing to do with GGG. He even said so himself. Protecting his 0. Fighting Berto and McGregor.

[Cojimar 1946]

That's right. Just like he was under zero obligation to move up to any of the weight. He bottled it.

For a guy who started at 130 he did great. Leonard never fought at light heavyweight so why expect Mayweather to go all the way to middleweight?

De La Hoya didn't accomplish anything at middleweight so he seems like a strange example

But he tried, Cojimar, he tried. So did Armstrong. Mr Mayweather didn't fancy it. He wanted nothing to do with GGG. He even said so himself. Protecting his 0. Fighting Berto and McGregor.

Against Berto and McGregor he was far past his prime in the twilight of his career. It's perfectly reasonable to take easy fights when you are far past it and on the verge of retirement. Since when do guys get criticized for taking two easy fights at the very end of their careers? People are judged on their careers as a whole not their last two fights when they are past it.

Golovkin was never lineal at middleweight so had he moved up he wouldn't have been the guy to fight anyway.