Comparing Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard :What's more impressive:

[keithmoonhangover]

For a guy who started at 130 he did great. Leonard never fought at light heavyweight so why expect Mayweather to go all the way to middleweight?

De La Hoya didn't accomplish anything at middleweight so he seems like a strange example

But he tried, Cojimar, he tried. So did Armstrong. Mr Mayweather didn't fancy it. He wanted nothing to do with GGG. He even said so himself. Protecting his 0. Fighting Berto and McGregor.

Against Berto and McGregor he was far past his prime in the twilight of his career. It's perfectly reasonable to take easy fights when you are far past it and on the verge of retirement. Since when do guys get criticized for taking two easy fights at the very end of their careers? People are judged on their careers as a whole not their last two fights when they are past it.

Golovkin was never lineal at middleweight so had he moved up he wouldn't have been the guy to fight anyway.

GGG was better than lineal, he was the most feared man in the division, that's why Floyd ducked him, Floyd admitted as much.

[Cojimar 1946]

But he tried, Cojimar, he tried. So did Armstrong. Mr Mayweather didn't fancy it. He wanted nothing to do with GGG. He even said so himself. Protecting his 0. Fighting Berto and McGregor.

Against Berto and McGregor he was far past his prime in the twilight of his career. It's perfectly reasonable to take easy fights when you are far past it and on the verge of retirement. Since when do guys get criticized for taking two easy fights at the very end of their careers? People are judged on their careers as a whole not their last two fights when they are past it.

Golovkin was never lineal at middleweight so had he moved up he wouldn't have been the guy to fight anyway.

GGG was better than lineal, he was the most feared man in the division, that's why Floyd ducked him, Floyd admitted as much.

Floyd's prime ended circa 2011. Nobody had any idea who Golovkin was at that stage

[Ambling Alp II]

Does Floyd have a last name?

[Cojimar 1946]

Plenty of guys could have challenged themselves by moving higher in weight
Robinson could have fought Marciano, Leonard could have challenged Spinks, Hearns could have gone after Holyfield, etc. I don't see how Mayweather opting not to fight at middleweight should be a bigger issue for his legacy than these other examples

[gilgamesh]

Does Floyd have a last name?

I think it's Weatherton or something like that.

[keithmoonhangover]

Against Berto and McGregor he was far past his prime in the twilight of his career. It's perfectly reasonable to take easy fights when you are far past it and on the verge of retirement. Since when do guys get criticized for taking two easy fights at the very end of their careers? People are judged on their careers as a whole not their last two fights when they are past it.

Golovkin was never lineal at middleweight so had he moved up he wouldn't have been the guy to fight anyway.

GGG was better than lineal, he was the most feared man in the division, that's why Floyd ducked him, Floyd admitted as much.

Floyd's prime ended circa 2011. Nobody had any idea who Golovkin was at that stage

No need to get defensive, Floyd didn't want to fight Golovkin. His quote on the subject was, "Even at the age of 40, I am not looking forward to fighting Triple G, but that would be easy".

[gilgamesh]

He didn't have to fight Golovkin. Fighters aren't under any obligation to go up in weight, and fight bigger fighters.

Marvin Hagler never fought Michael Spinks either.

And remember when GGG went up and tested himself at Light Heavyweight? Because I don't.

Going up in weight successfully is a nice boost to your career if you can pull it off. It's not a necessary one. If the public is constantly wanting you to move up in weight, it's because they're not satisfied they haven't seen you beaten or tested to your maximum limit yet and basically they want to get you beaten

[Cojimar 1946]

Floyd can't duck someone in a division he never fought in so why bring it up in the first place?

He jumped multiple divisions during his career. He wasn't under any obligation to go farther in the same way Leonard wasn't obliged to fight at light heavyweight

[Ambling Alp II]

Notice that the very elite always seem to though. Langford, Greb, Charles, Armstrong, Leonard. Obviously Ali couldn't.
No Mayweather, oops I mean Floyd wasn't obliged to fight him. However, if he would have pulled that off, he would be rated higher. Not fight Pacquaio much sooner was his biggest letdown. It was The Fight out there for a long time but didn't happen until it was way too late to mean anything.

[Cojimar 1946]

He moved farther up in weight than Leonard did who had like two fights above middleweight

Golovkin was never the lineal champ so unlikely Leonard would have fought him. More likely Pavlik or Nartinez

[gilgamesh]

He moved farther up in weight than Leonard did who had like two fights above middleweight

Golovkin was never the lineal champ so unlikely Leonard would have fought him. More likely Pavlik or Nartinez

They moved up about the same amount of weight pounds wise. I don't think Leonard ever weighed 170 in a fight even when he fought Lalonde.

[Cojimar 1946]

He moved farther up in weight than Leonard did who had like two fights above middleweight

Golovkin was never the lineal champ so unlikely Leonard would have fought him. More likely Pavlik or Nartinez

They moved up about the same amount of weight pounds wise. I don't think Leonard ever weighed 170 in a fight even when he fought Lalonde.

Leonards lightest was 141 and he had two fights with guys over 160 lalonde and hearns

[gilgamesh]

He moved farther up in weight than Leonard did who had like two fights above middleweight

Golovkin was never the lineal champ so unlikely Leonard would have fought him. More likely Pavlik or Nartinez

They moved up about the same amount of weight pounds wise. I don't think Leonard ever weighed 170 in a fight even when he fought Lalonde.

Leonards lightest was 141 and he had two fights with guys over 160 lalonde and hearns

I always found it weird that his 3rd fight with Duran was for Leonard's Super Middleweight title even though they both weighed in at the Middleweight limit, and Duran had a belt there.

Floyd's 24 pounds or Leonard's 29 pounds. It's the same amount of weight classes so it's basically the same thing.

[Ambling Alp II]

"Floyd" and "Leonard" Love it when people do that.

It not really about the weight. It's about fighting the best that you can. If there a ton of great fighters at your weight class for a long period of time, then you can fight them and prove that you are really one of the top handful of fighters that ever lived.

Most of the time, that is not possible. Had Willie Pep beat some of the great lightweights of his era, he would belong. He didn't.
As great as he was, he doesn't belong with these guys. To belong with these guys, you have to do something incredible. Willie and Mayweather did not do enough.

[Cojimar 1946]

Plenty of highly rated guys never beat anyone great themselves. Hopkins never beat a prime great and neither did Hagler or Monzon

[gilgamesh]

"Floyd" and "Leonard" Love it when people do that.

It not really about the weight. It's about fighting the best that you can. If there a ton of great fighters at your weight class for a long period of time, then you can fight them and prove that you are really one of the top handful of fighters that ever lived.

Most of the time, that is not possible. Had Willie Pep beat some of the great lightweights of his era, he would belong. He didn't.
As great as he was, he doesn't belong with these guys. To belong with these guys, you have to do something incredible. Willie and Mayweather did not do enough.

Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley, Canelo Alvarez, Manny Pacquiao, Miguel Cotto, Juan Manuel Marquez and Arturo Gatti are all Hall of Famers. That's 7.

Not a lot of guys from the modern era have victories over that many Hall of Fame opponents.

And that includes one Mr. Sugar Ray Leonard. He has wins over 4 Hall of Famers.

De La Hoya, Mosley, Canelo and arguably Cotto are all naturally bigger men than Mayweather. They either began their careers heavier or had been at a heavier weight much longer than him. Mosley was coming off of one of his career best wins with a one sided demolition of Antonio Margarito being his last bout prior to facing Floyd.

Marquez would still go on to win his biggest victory in the weight class that he was "too small for" when he lost to Floyd.

Canelo would go on to be the face of Boxing, and one of it's biggest stars and most dominant Champions for the next 10 years after losing to Floyd. He was already a World Titleholder making his 6th or 7th title defense when he fought Floyd in the first place

But yes....Floyd didn't fight good competition.

[gilgamesh]

Plenty of highly rated guys never beat anyone great themselves. Hopkins never beat a prime great and neither did Hagler or Monzon

Hearns was prime when Hagler beat him. Trinidad was prime when Hopkins beat him. That's great opponents to have beaten in my opinion.

In both cases though their opponent was the smaller man, but it doesn't diminish the achievement to me. Great fighters don't tend to be easy to beat regardless of size.

And if Monzon didn't beat anyone "Great" he sure as sh*t beat a lot of people that were very good. Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, Rodrigo Valdes

Any one of them 3 guys could clean out the current Middleweight division no doubt about it.

[Cojimar 1946]

Plenty of highly rated guys never beat anyone great themselves. Hopkins never beat a prime great and neither did Hagler or Monzon

Hearns was prime when Hagler beat him. Trinidad was prime when Hopkins beat him. That's great opponents to have beaten in my opinion.

In both cases though their opponent was the smaller man, but it doesn't diminish the achievement to me. Great fighters don't tend to be easy to beat regardless of size.

And if Monzon didn't beat anyone "Great" he sure as sh*t beat a lot of people that were very good. Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, Rodrigo Valdes

Any one of them 3 guys could clean out the current Middleweight division no doubt about it.

Can't see how Hearns qualifies as great at middleweight. His accomplishments at lower weights are why he is considered great by most. But at middleweight beating him can't be considered that impressive.

You would have to lower the bar of greatness for middleweight Hearns to qualify as great to the point that numerous Floyd victims would be considered great

[gilgamesh]

Plenty of highly rated guys never beat anyone great themselves. Hopkins never beat a prime great and neither did Hagler or Monzon

Hearns was prime when Hagler beat him. Trinidad was prime when Hopkins beat him. That's great opponents to have beaten in my opinion.

In both cases though their opponent was the smaller man, but it doesn't diminish the achievement to me. Great fighters don't tend to be easy to beat regardless of size.

And if Monzon didn't beat anyone "Great" he sure as sh*t beat a lot of people that were very good. Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, Rodrigo Valdes

Any one of them 3 guys could clean out the current Middleweight division no doubt about it.

Can't see how Hearns qualifies as great at middleweight. His accomplishments at lower weights are why he is considered great by most. But at middleweight beating him can't be considered that impressive.

You would have to lower the bar of greatness for middleweight Hearns to qualify as great to the point that numerous Floyd victims would be considered great

What about the fact that he was good enough to dethrone a long reigning Light Heavyweight titlist? He was also quite impressive in picking up his Middleweight belt by beating Juan Roldan's ass in an awesome fight.

Hearns was a P4P great, and Middleweight was not his limit, but Hagler was.

He beat Duran and Roldan easier than Hagler did too. So it's not as if he was dog sh*t as a Middleweight.

[Cojimar 1946]

Hearns was prime when Hagler beat him. Trinidad was prime when Hopkins beat him. That's great opponents to have beaten in my opinion.

In both cases though their opponent was the smaller man, but it doesn't diminish the achievement to me. Great fighters don't tend to be easy to beat regardless of size.

And if Monzon didn't beat anyone "Great" he sure as sh*t beat a lot of people that were very good. Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, Rodrigo Valdes

Any one of them 3 guys could clean out the current Middleweight division no doubt about it.

Can't see how Hearns qualifies as great at middleweight. His accomplishments at lower weights are why he is considered great by most. But at middleweight beating him can't be considered that impressive.

You would have to lower the bar of greatness for middleweight Hearns to qualify as great to the point that numerous Floyd victims would be considered great

What about the fact that he was good enough to dethrone a long reigning Light Heavyweight titlist? He was also quite impressive in picking up his Middleweight belt by beating Juan Roldan's ass in an awesome fight.

Hearns was a P4P great, and Middleweight was not his limit, but Hagler was.

He beat Duran and Roldan easier than Hagler did too. So it's not as if he was dog sh*t as a Middleweight.

So was Barkley. He didn't do a lot at middlweight and realistically someone like Julian Jackson or Nigel Benn could probably beat everyone Hearns beat at middleweight. They might improve on him by beating Barkley though.

I wouldn't rate Hearns at middleweight over Castillo at 135 or Corrales at 130 despite being a better fighter overall

[gilgamesh]

He's over any version of Corrales. He's another level from Corrales.

If he wouldn't rate higher on the all time divisional list it would only be because 130 has less history. Talent wise Hearns is so, so much better than Corrales.

[Ambling Alp II]

Plenty of highly rated guys never beat anyone great themselves. Hopkins never beat a prime great and neither did Hagler or Monzon

Yes. And they did enough to be deserved to be rated highly rate highly but not as highly as Langford, Greb, Armstrong, Charles, Robinson and Leonard, who all beat multiple great fighters including fighters above their weight class.
Are you now getting this? This isn't rocket science.

[Cojimar 1946]

Plenty of highly rated guys never beat anyone great themselves. Hopkins never beat a prime great and neither did Hagler or Monzon

Yes. And they did enough to be deserved to be rated highly rate highly but not as highly as Langford, Greb, Armstrong, Charles, Robinson and Leonard, who all beat multiple great fighters including fighters above their weight class.
Are you now getting this? This isn't rocket science.

You can overcome better wins with greater depth and longevity. Leonard has two wins arguably better than anything Robinson has in Duran and Hearns but isn't ranked ahead of him.

Robinson beat lots of very good fighters but Gavilan is the only prime great that I would rate over anyone Mayweather beat

[goose 5]

I remember the sports historian Art Rust Jr. talking about Tommy Bell and saying he was a great fighter. On paper, he's not, but to the eye he may have been. Same with Jackie Wilson and George Costner, just to name 2 guys Robinson beat.

a film collector showed me some film of Gomeo Brennan and I was more impressed with him than with some guys who won middleweight titles such as Alan Minter, Paul Pender, Felix Trinidad, Hugo Corro and even Bernard Hopkins. Arthur king also , in my view, was better than several guys who became champ; however, until I saw him on film I never would have suspected that. Discounting fighters, whom one hasn't actually seen fight, based on their won-loss record and lack of a title or titles isn't a good idea.

[gilgamesh]

Plenty of highly rated guys never beat anyone great themselves. Hopkins never beat a prime great and neither did Hagler or Monzon

Yes. And they did enough to be deserved to be rated highly rate highly but not as highly as Langford, Greb, Armstrong, Charles, Robinson and Leonard, who all beat multiple great fighters including fighters above their weight class.
Are you now getting this? This isn't rocket science.

You can overcome better wins with greater depth and longevity. Leonard has two wins arguably better than anything Robinson has in Duran and Hearns but isn't ranked ahead of him.

Robinson beat lots of very good fighters but Gavilan is the only prime great that I would rate over anyone Mayweather beat

It's actually funny that Mayweather gets so routinely sh*t on and people still haven't been able to fully put in context the stuff he accomplished.

You could honestly make a pretty strong argument he had a better career than Leonard. Leonard 3 bigger wins than any that Mayweather has, but Mayweather has more big wins overall.

When Leonard was 34 he was "past his prime" and couldn't beat 23 year old Terry Norris. When Mayweather was 36 he beat 23 year old Canelo, but Canelo with 40+ fights and multiple World Title fights under his belt wasn't experienced enough for Floyd for some reason.

Basically people spin it to make the fighter they want to say is better is better.

Head to head as Welterweights at their best. Leonard wins between the 2 of them. Floyd was more professional, more disciplined and made more out of his career.

Leonard was past his prime at 34 because he wanted to Coke it up during the 80's. Floyd at 36 wasn't past his prime. He in fact got arguably his biggest win.