Comparing Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard :What's more impressive:

[gilgamesh]

You seem to keep accusing me of Bias toward Mayweather because he's from my era simply because you can't present a better argument. I argument is tha tLeoanrd beat far better fighters. How many times do I have to pint this out?

Leonard is from your era. Is that why you favor him?

And why no acknowledgement about the Canelo win? Because that actually is a big one and it would mean you'd have to give Floyd credit?

Yes he beat Canelo. Not saying Mayweather wasn't great. But Leonard has four wins better than that.
You seem to worship mayweather.. To the point of using his name and calling the other guy by his last name. Leonard was in my time. almost every other guy that I mentioned as the very best was well before my time. Why is that? The sport is well over 100 years old. The odds are that most of the best fighters are going to be well before my or your time.

Why do i seem to worship him? I'm not a fan of his. I never rooted for him in any fight he ever had outside of the MacGregor fight. I'm just giving you facts and you can't counter my argument with better facts so you need to pretend I'm a fan boy for a guy I never rooted for.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't know what to say. don't know why you keep saying I have not "countered your facts." I have always tried to answer what you have said if I disagreed with it. If I missed something I apologize.

You certainly seem to be a fan the way that talk about him and kept calling him Floyd and not the other guys. That is usually a tip off. Used to see that with Tyson fans who would always call him Mike. Guess it doesn't really matter to me if you are a fan or not.

[gilgamesh]

Floyd is one of those guys you can't tell the truth about lest you be called his biggest fan or his biggest hater

If you simply see him for what he was. That's unacceptable to people. Definitely odd the effect he has on people.

[Cojimar 1946]

The guys Mayweather beat were the best available. Beating the best available is all you can reasonably expect him to do. If you are rating on accomplishments in his era I don't see what else he could have done aside from climbing even higher in weight

[Ambling Alp II]

He could have fought Pacquaio much earlier. There were several years when they were both in their primes when it was by far biggest fight out there and it didn't happen. By the time they did fight it was meaningless.

[gilgamesh]

He could have fought Pacquaio much earlier. There were several years when they were both in their primes when it was by far biggest fight out there and it didn't happen. By the time they did fight it was meaningless.

Why was it meaningless? Pacquiao was still 3 years away from defeating Keith Thurman who was the #1 ranked Welterweight at the time. If he was good enough to beat the #1 guy 3 years after fighting Floyd, he surely still had plenty to give when he fought Floyd.

It would've been better earlier. It wasn't meaningless though.

[Cojimar 1946]

He could have fought Pacquaio much earlier. There were several years when they were both in their primes when it was by far biggest fight out there and it didn't happen. By the time they did fight it was meaningless.

Pacquiao was never prime at welterweight as it was not his best weight class. He was best at a weight class that Mayweather never fought at. Also Pacquiao is not considered a great welterweight to begin with so I don't think beating him earlier makes much of a difference.

Fights almost never happen when both guys are at their best. Holyfield and Holyfield should have fought 7 years earlier than they did.

[gilgamesh]

He could have fought Pacquaio much earlier. There were several years when they were both in their primes when it was by far biggest fight out there and it didn't happen. By the time they did fight it was meaningless.

Pacquiao was never prime at welterweight as it was not his best weight class. He was best at a weight class that Mayweather never fought at. Also Pacquiao is not considered a great welterweight to begin with so I don't think beating him earlier makes much of a difference.

Fights almost never happen when both guys are at their best. Holyfield and Holyfield should have fought 7 years earlier than they did.

I would actually say that Pacquiao from 2008-2010 is probably the best he ever was as a fighter. He had developed a more versatile attack and more punch variety by the time he got to 135 on up. He was noticeably better than he had been in 2004 or 2005.

I'm sure he wasn't at his strongest due to the extra weight, but he was at his best in terms of ability.

[Cojimar 1946]

He could have fought Pacquaio much earlier. There were several years when they were both in their primes when it was by far biggest fight out there and it didn't happen. By the time they did fight it was meaningless.

Pacquiao was never prime at welterweight as it was not his best weight class. He was best at a weight class that Mayweather never fought at. Also Pacquiao is not considered a great welterweight to begin with so I don't think beating him earlier makes much of a difference.

Fights almost never happen when both guys are at their best. Holyfield and Holyfield should have fought 7 years earlier than they did.

I would actually say that Pacquiao from 2008-2010 is probably the best he ever was as a fighter. He had developed a more versatile attack and more punch variety by the time he got to 135 on up. He was noticeably better than he had been in 2004 or 2005.

I'm sure he wasn't at his strongest due to the extra weight, but he was at his best in terms of ability.

He seems far more bearable at that weight. What would someone like Hearns do to him? Or Robinson? Realistically he would rate lower h2h at welterweight than 126 or 122 partially due to giving away so much size

[gilgamesh]

Yeah he'd probably rate higher as a Featherweight than he would as a Welterweight, but honestly he would be equally as beatable i think.

The worst I ever saw Pacquiao get his ass kicked, and be just completely overwhelmed by his opponent was in the fight when he lost his Flyweight Championship ironically enough.

[keithmoonhangover]

He could have fought Pacquaio much earlier. There were several years when they were both in their primes when it was by far biggest fight out there and it didn't happen. By the time they did fight it was meaningless.

Pacquiao was never prime at welterweight as it was not his best weight class. He was best at a weight class that Mayweather never fought at. Also Pacquiao is not considered a great welterweight to begin with so I don't think beating him earlier makes much of a difference.

Fights almost never happen when both guys are at their best. Holyfield and Holyfield should have fought 7 years earlier than they did.

Alp is correct. Floyd ducked him for many a year. There is no denying that.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

He could have fought Pacquaio much earlier. There were several years when they were both in their primes when it was by far biggest fight out there and it didn't happen. By the time they did fight it was meaningless.

Pacquiao was never prime at welterweight as it was not his best weight class. He was best at a weight class that Mayweather never fought at. Also Pacquiao is not considered a great welterweight to begin with so I don't think beating him earlier makes much of a difference.

Fights almost never happen when both guys are at their best. Holyfield and Holyfield should have fought 7 years earlier than they did.

- Manny consecutively Welter ranked from the close of 2000s into the 2020s, often #1. Moreover, he set P4P Ring Ratings records that will never be topped.

Meanwhile, it looks like you fergot to flush again...phew

[Cojimar 1946]

He could have fought Pacquaio much earlier. There were several years when they were both in their primes when it was by far biggest fight out there and it didn't happen. By the time they did fight it was meaningless.

Pacquiao was never prime at welterweight as it was not his best weight class. He was best at a weight class that Mayweather never fought at. Also Pacquiao is not considered a great welterweight to begin with so I don't think beating him earlier makes much of a difference.

Fights almost never happen when both guys are at their best. Holyfield and Holyfield should have fought 7 years earlier than they did.

Alp is correct. Floyd ducked him for many a year. There is no denying that.

Delaying a fight with a younger opponent is not to the advantage of the older fighter. Pacquiao did a lot more following the loss than Floyd did who retired immediately.

[keithmoonhangover]

Pacquiao was never prime at welterweight as it was not his best weight class. He was best at a weight class that Mayweather never fought at. Also Pacquiao is not considered a great welterweight to begin with so I don't think beating him earlier makes much of a difference.

Fights almost never happen when both guys are at their best. Holyfield and Holyfield should have fought 7 years earlier than they did.

Alp is correct. Floyd ducked him for many a year. There is no denying that.

Delaying a fight with a younger opponent is not to the advantage of the older fighter. Pacquiao did a lot more following the loss than Floyd did who retired immediately.

Why are you so sensitive? Floyd ducked the fight with Manny for years. He is on record stating he wouldn't take the fight. He ducked him, live with it.

[gilgamesh]

Wasn't the delay at one point because Pacquiao didn't want to do VADA testing and said he was afraid of needles or something? Seems like I recall that. It was delayed by both of em at one time or another.

[Ambling Alp II]

They were the top 2 welterweights in 2009. And 2010. And 2011. For three years people were talking about them fighting constantly. Three years. It was by far the biggest fight out there. And it didn't happen. Had it happened then, it might have been a great fight. The winner would have had a huge victory.

Yes, Pacquaio was way past it his best by the time they finally fought. anyone watching Pacquiao fight could tell that.
doesn't matter of he beat the great Thurman after that. He had lost to Bradley before then. Look horrible and against Marquez and got knocked out. He had been in a ton of fights by then and had taken a lot punishment. Everyone knew going into the fight that he was well past his best. He was no longer a great fighter. Had not been one for a while. Not even close.
We should have to argue obvious stuff like this. this isn't a gray area. Really I'm not surprised that cojimar would say stuff like this. But Gilgamesh, come on.

[gilgamesh]

Pacquiao may be only a few months away from winning another World Title 10 years after fighting Floyd. Maybe Floyd was just a bad style matchup for him and always would've beaten him?

[Ambling Alp II]

And again, WBS titles by itself doesn't mean anything. He was way past the fighter that he had once bee, Watch the fights. He was nowhere near the fighter in 2015 that he was in 2009. Not remotely close. Watch him for each time back-to-back. Harldy looks like the same guy.

Maybe Mayweather would have beaten him in 2009-2011. Maybe not. I think it could have gone either way. Would have been close and probably a great fight. We will never know.

[gilgamesh]

Floyd wasn't the same fighter in 2015 either. He was older than Pac, but i guess aging only affected Pacquiao huh?

[Cojimar 1946]

Alp is correct. Floyd ducked him for many a year. There is no denying that.

Delaying a fight with a younger opponent is not to the advantage of the older fighter. Pacquiao did a lot more following the loss than Floyd did who retired immediately.

Why are you so sensitive? Floyd ducked the fight with Manny for years. He is on record stating he wouldn't take the fight. He ducked him, live with it.

He fought him, live with it. He states he won't take the fight and then takes it. How does that make sense?

[gilgamesh]

Oh and for the record. Pacquiao never really lost to Tim Bradley. I know officially he didn't get the nod, but he beat him every bit as clearly in their 1st bout as he did in their 2nd and 3rd.

I assume Bradley got the decision because he was also a Top Rank fighter and it allowed Bob Arum to make a trilogy out of it and make 3 times as much money.

[keithmoonhangover]

Delaying a fight with a younger opponent is not to the advantage of the older fighter. Pacquiao did a lot more following the loss than Floyd did who retired immediately.

Why are you so sensitive? Floyd ducked the fight with Manny for years. He is on record stating he wouldn't take the fight. He ducked him, live with it.

He fought him, live with it. He states he won't take the fight and then takes it. How does that make sense?

I know he fought him, because I watched it, but he avoided Manny for years.

I have a feeling that you prefer defending your arguments and refusing to back down, more than you do watching boxing.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Pacquiao was never prime at welterweight as it was not his best weight class. He was best at a weight class that Mayweather never fought at. Also Pacquiao is not considered a great welterweight to begin with so I don't think beating him earlier makes much of a difference.

Fights almost never happen when both guys are at their best. Holyfield and Holyfield should have fought 7 years earlier than they did.

Alp is correct. Floyd ducked him for many a year. There is no denying that.

Delaying a fight with a younger opponent is not to the advantage of the older fighter. Pacquiao did a lot more following the loss than Floyd did who retired immediately.

- Manny is only a year younger with many more fights than TBE TUE and they appear on Ring p4p ratings at near the same time.

TBE TUE and he crack daddy reserved MGM Grand, 2010-03-13, for their fight as negotiations were fast tracked, the biggest fight that could be made then. Then at the last minute, he and he crack daddy pulled out after inserting non standard drug testing. Since Manny was running for a seat in the Philippine Congress and had planned their fight around that, he and Arum kept that date and shut out Clottey and then Margarito, 2 fighters TBE TUE avoided who forfeited his MGM Date rather than risk Manny outdrawing him on PPVs.

When they fought, TBE TUE basically ran for corners turning his back, a DQ under most officiating when all Manny wanted to do was serve him the sushi he ordered...It was MoneyFraud that resulted in megamillions in lawsuits that would give most profession sports orgs a black eye with changes in organization and officiating formats.

Not boxing whose officials and other big players have made fortunes in gambling assets using their crooked officiating.

What grade was you in then?

[Cojimar 1946]

Why are you so sensitive? Floyd ducked the fight with Manny for years. He is on record stating he wouldn't take the fight. He ducked him, live with it.

He fought him, live with it. He states he won't take the fight and then takes it. How does that make sense?

I know he fought him, because I watched it, but he avoided Manny for years.

I have a feeling that you prefer defending your arguments and refusing to back down, more than you do watching boxing.

A fight not happening immediately doesn't equal avoidance. If it did than Holyfield would have avoided Lewis and Tyson due to not fighting them earlier. Same with Hearns and Benitez not fighting Duran earlier.

Somehow the fighters in question are not accused of avoiding their opponents.

The fact Pacquiao scored one of his best wins at welterweight years later should render the argument moot anyway

[keithmoonhangover]

He fought him, live with it. He states he won't take the fight and then takes it. How does that make sense?

I know he fought him, because I watched it, but he avoided Manny for years.

I have a feeling that you prefer defending your arguments and refusing to back down, more than you do watching boxing.

A fight not happening immediately doesn't equal avoidance. If it did than Holyfield would have avoided Lewis and Tyson due to not fighting them earlier. Same with Hearns and Benitez not fighting Duran earlier.

Somehow the fighters in question are not accused of avoiding their opponents.

The fact Pacquiao scored one of his best wins at welterweight years later should render the argument moot anyway