Oleksandr Usyk

[gilgamesh]

Best cruiser in its strongest era imo, but only the best heavy in one of its weakest. So to rate him P4P top ten you either have to appreciate his cruiser career enough to qualify largely by itself, or believe he'd have beaten at least a few great heavies from the past.

His is a pretty solid Heavyweight era. Best of this century up to now and better than the 1980's as well. So it's a better era than 3 of the last 5 decades.

[gilgamesh]

Best cruiser in its strongest era imo, but only the best heavy in one of its weakest. So to rate him P4P top ten you either have to appreciate his cruiser career enough to qualify largely by itself, or believe he'd have beaten at least a few great heavies from the past.

He has multiple wins over the consensus 2 and 3 of the era in an era which, while not great, is not the worst. Who are the top 10 heavies of the best era's who have managed to get consistent top level wins?

The only Heavyweights of any eras who got "consistent" top level wins are Ali, Louis and Holyfield. That's it.

Anybody else usually has less than a handful of truly great wins.

[joshj909]

Best cruiser in its strongest era imo, but only the best heavy in one of its weakest. So to rate him P4P top ten you either have to appreciate his cruiser career enough to qualify largely by itself, or believe he'd have beaten at least a few great heavies from the past.

He has multiple wins over the consensus 2 and 3 of the era in an era which, while not great, is not the worst. Who are the top 10 heavies of the best era's who have managed to get consistent top level wins?

The only Heavyweights of any eras who got "consistent" top level wins are Ali, Louis and Holyfield. That's it.

Anybody else usually has less than a handful of truly great wins.

So is your argument enough to discount Usyk from the top 10 on its own?

[gilgamesh]

He has multiple wins over the consensus 2 and 3 of the era in an era which, while not great, is not the worst. Who are the top 10 heavies of the best era's who have managed to get consistent top level wins?

The only Heavyweights of any eras who got "consistent" top level wins are Ali, Louis and Holyfield. That's it.

Anybody else usually has less than a handful of truly great wins.

So is your argument enough to discount Usyk from the top 10 on its own?

Not sure what you mean.

[joshj909]

The only Heavyweights of any eras who got "consistent" top level wins are Ali, Louis and Holyfield. That's it.

Anybody else usually has less than a handful of truly great wins.

So is your argument enough to discount Usyk from the top 10 on its own?

Not sure what you mean.

Just realised that it wasn't you that I replied to initially. Ignore me

[bmw hector]

The cruiserweights that Usyk beat to become undisputed champion would have been heavyweights back in the Marciano and Louis era. Louis and Marciano themselves would have been cruiserweights, as would the majority of their opponents.
To go from cruiserweight up to challenge the supersized heavyweights today and overcome them using his all round skills is an amazing feat.
He did so at a pretty advanced age himself utilising a style that relied on constant movement and high pressure. I think he's a pretty remarkable fighter that could have been champion in any era.

Holyfield gets kudos for being the first cruiser to do it but took the title from an unmotivated Douglas and then had as many wins as losses against his main rivals. (Not putting Holy down, I loved the guy) Usyk beat the best of his era and then did it again in rematches. He didn't have long at the top at heavyweight but doesn't need a padded puffed out record beating second or third tier heavyweights that you know he'd have beaten anyway. Louis had his bum of the month period and his greatest win was against....Schmelling? Baer? Walcott?

I'd stick Usyk in the top 5 and I think his career will be looked back on more favourably once he's retired.

[gilgamesh]

What you mentioned at the top there was an important point that many Boxing historians should always keep in mind. Any "Cruiserweight" today is a Heavyweight anytime prior to 2004.

Even the Cruiserweight limit initially began as 190 pounds, and was set at 190 pounds until I believe 2004 or thereabouts (not all the sanctioning bodies changed it from 190 to 200 at the same time, but all eventually did). Prior to 1980 any man weighing 176 pounds or heavier was a Heavyweight.

Prior to 2004 any man weighing 200 pound was a Heavyweight too.

So this is not ancient history. Small Heavyweights being called "Cruiserweights" is a relatively new thing in the history of the sport, and the Cruiserweight division even when it has talent like Holyfield or Usyk in it, really never gets a whole lot of attention at any time, and I don't think it ever will. Not really sure why, the fights are solid in that division, and the competition is usually fairly stiff, but for whatever reason it's always one of the least paid attention to of any of the weight classes.

It could be that some old timers are sticklers for the old ways, and never could take to Cruiserweights even existing. I can relate, I'll always feel the same about "Bridgerweight" and I'll always think of any so called Bridgerweight as a Heavyweight. I will never acknowledge the existence of that weight class, I'm sure some feel the same about Cruiserweight for a similar reason.

[joshj909]

Theres a lot of heavies that are just out of shape cruiserweights or those too lazy to cut weight. Some of them, such as Wilder had enough success at heavyweight and earned good money there which he wouldn't have made at Cruiserweight, but most heavyweights that are under 6'4 and are carrying a tonne of weight should be cruiserweights. The heavyweight division should really be the weakest division in terms of depth because to be that big while also being able to box for 12 rounds you need to have a big frame and be 6'4+. That doesn't make up a large percentage of the population.

[stujones]

The cruiserweights that Usyk beat to become undisputed champion would have been heavyweights back in the Marciano and Louis era. Louis and Marciano themselves would have been cruiserweights, as would the majority of their opponents.
To go from cruiserweight up to challenge the supersized heavyweights today and overcome them using his all round skills is an amazing feat.
He did so at a pretty advanced age himself utilising a style that relied on constant movement and high pressure. I think he's a pretty remarkable fighter that could have been champion in any era.

Holyfield gets kudos for being the first cruiser to do it but took the title from an unmotivated Douglas and then had as many wins as losses against his main rivals. (Not putting Holy down, I loved the guy) Usyk beat the best of his era and then did it again in rematches. He didn't have long at the top at heavyweight but doesn't need a padded puffed out record beating second or third tier heavyweights that you know he'd have beaten anyway. Louis had his bum of the month period and his greatest win was against....Schmelling? Baer? Walcott?

I'd stick Usyk in the top 5 and I think his career will be looked back on more favourably once he's retired.

Usyk does have such a unique style - when you think of high pressure fighters - I would immediately think of people like Wayne McCullough, Ricky Hatton, Barry McGuigan, Paul Ingle. The type of pressure Usyk does is very unique.

I think Usyk is right up there in all time list of fighters who are most relaxed in the ring - nothing phases him. He fights with such an experience - a bit like Hopkins - when you just seem him fight - you think "he's excellent, but doesn't do anything top top class" in some cases seems to win on experience alone - but in reality he is such a difficult fighter to fight. It is that constant subtle movement that you mention. He is also almost unique in that he doesn't mind losing rounds, in fact sometimes think he likes losing rounds, whereas most fighters would hit the panic button if they have lost 2/3 rounds.

I would say - Hopkins, Mayweather and Usyk are the 3 top fighters in the colour TV era that are most relaxed in the ring no matter what the pressure is - and not in that order necessarily either. How Usyk almost "fiddled" his way to beat Joshua in fight one and Fury in fight 2, to win EMPHATICALLY (I don't care what Fury said) was something else. He's adaptable but also studies (I think) a guys weakness very well. AJ has a low boxing IQ (for elite level) and Usyk exposed it, Fury doesn't like fighting at a pace and Usyk exposed it. I think the one they were possibly most concerned about was the "new, improved Dubios" - so Usyk just decided to go into 5th gear from the off.

I have a serious man love for him!

[deadpan]

The cruiserweights that Usyk beat to become undisputed champion would have been heavyweights back in the Marciano and Louis era. Louis and Marciano themselves would have been cruiserweights, as would the majority of their opponents.
To go from cruiserweight up to challenge the supersized heavyweights today and overcome them using his all round skills is an amazing feat.
He did so at a pretty advanced age himself utilising a style that relied on constant movement and high pressure. I think he's a pretty remarkable fighter that could have been champion in any era.

Holyfield gets kudos for being the first cruiser to do it but took the title from an unmotivated Douglas and then had as many wins as losses against his main rivals. (Not putting Holy down, I loved the guy) Usyk beat the best of his era and then did it again in rematches. He didn't have long at the top at heavyweight but doesn't need a padded puffed out record beating second or third tier heavyweights that you know he'd have beaten anyway. Louis had his bum of the month period and his greatest win was against....Schmelling? Baer? Walcott?

I'd stick Usyk in the top 5 and I think his career will be looked back on more favourably once he's retired.

Usyk does have such a unique style - when you think of high pressure fighters - I would immediately think of people like Wayne McCullough, Ricky Hatton, Barry McGuigan, Paul Ingle. The type of pressure Usyk does is very unique.

I think Usyk is right up there in all time list of fighters who are most relaxed in the ring - nothing phases him. He fights with such an experience - a bit like Hopkins - when you just seem him fight - you think "he's excellent, but doesn't do anything top top class" in some cases seems to win on experience alone - but in reality he is such a difficult fighter to fight. It is that constant subtle movement that you mention. He is also almost unique in that he doesn't mind losing rounds, in fact sometimes think he likes losing rounds, whereas most fighters would hit the panic button if they have lost 2/3 rounds.

I would say - Hopkins, Mayweather and Usyk are the 3 top fighters in the colour TV era that are most relaxed in the ring no matter what the pressure is - and not in that order necessarily either. How Usyk almost "fiddled" his way to beat Joshua in fight one and Fury in fight 2, to win EMPHATICALLY (I don't care what Fury said) was something else. He's adaptable but also studies (I think) a guys weakness very well. AJ has a low boxing IQ (for elite level) and Usyk exposed it, Fury doesn't like fighting at a pace and Usyk exposed it. I think the one they were possibly most concerned about was the "new, improved Dubios" - so Usyk just decided to go into 5th gear from the off.

I have a serious man love for him!

Eloquently expressed. Me too!

[DrDuke]

This sounds too big at the first look, but why not? He boxes almost like a perfect pugilist and he cleaned up 2 divisions.

[joshj909]

I think Usyk is right up there in all time list of fighters who are most relaxed in the ring - nothing phases him. He fights with such an experience - a bit like Hopkins - when you just seem him fight - you think "he's excellent, but doesn't do anything top top class" in some cases seems to win on experience alone - but in reality he is such a difficult fighter to fight. It is that constant subtle movement that you mention. He is also almost unique in that he doesn't mind losing rounds, in fact sometimes think he likes losing rounds, whereas most fighters would hit the panic button if they have lost 2/3 rounds.

Agreed. It's not even like he's a counter puncher or a constantly twitching feinter. He just constantly asks a wide variety of questions and has an answer for everything else that gets thrown at him. People often find some initial confidence against him, answering his variety of shots. Then the pressure gets too much and they begin to slow or leave themselves more open. Then he finds the shots that are working and keeps picking at them. He then just breaks them down while his opponents get frustrated.

[stujones]

I think Usyk is right up there in all time list of fighters who are most relaxed in the ring - nothing phases him. He fights with such an experience - a bit like Hopkins - when you just seem him fight - you think "he's excellent, but doesn't do anything top top class" in some cases seems to win on experience alone - but in reality he is such a difficult fighter to fight. It is that constant subtle movement that you mention. He is also almost unique in that he doesn't mind losing rounds, in fact sometimes think he likes losing rounds, whereas most fighters would hit the panic button if they have lost 2/3 rounds.

Agreed. It's not even like he's a counter puncher or a constantly twitching feinter. He just constantly asks a wide variety of questions and has an answer for everything else that gets thrown at him. People often find some initial confidence against him, answering his variety of shots. Then the pressure gets too much and they begin to slow or leave themselves more open. Then he finds the shots that are working and keeps picking at them. He then just breaks them down while his opponents get frustrated.

Absolutely - he is like an exceptional (before I get laughed at) Sven Ottke - not in terms of style, but when you see Joshua, Fury, Dubios and Joyce (in the amateurs) you immediately think "well what can Usyk bring to the table that will beat these much bigger men" - does he have exceptional power - not to look at, does he have exceptional defense - umm - well when you see how marked up he gets you think "no", does he have exceptional handspeed - again I wouldn't put him in the Shane Mosely, Sugar Ray Leonard category - but as a complete package, particularly with the IQ, Fitness, Experience and Focus - there isn't much better. Usyk at Cruiserweight was a slightly different animal as he could outstrength his opponents easier.

With Sven Ottke - it is obviously all at a lower level, and while Usyk doesn't look like he has "exceptional" Power, defence etc - Ottke looked like he had bang average all of these things - but yet, even taking out the odd dodgy decision - he deservedly beat a number of world class Super Middles for the time frame - which when you see him you just think he would struggle to beat anyone in the top 50.

I think two particular remarkable things I will never forget from Usyk reign at heavyweight - both happened in the first fury fight. 1) - When Fury was clowning around and doing the wanker gesture - Usyk was just stoney focused, didn't make him rush in or change his approach for a second and 2) - Just how cool he was in the corner when Fury was having a good spell. Usyk started the fight well, but it looked like Fury found his rhythm - and hurt Usyk - but again didn't look panic, phased or anything - just utter confidence that he would get to Fury. I'm also always amazed at how seriously Usyk does the stare down at the weigh ins.

[gilgamesh]

That's a common personality trait with a lot of these guys. They're loose and easy going outside the ring, but inside it they're serious as it gets.

A lot of the Eastern European fighters have that kinda personality to some extent as well, but Usyk is much more gregarious outside the ring than most.