Mike tyson vs riddick bowe 1991?

[Ambling Alp II]

Holmes was doing better in 1992 than Carl Williams too, who was losing to Jerry Jones at the time. Didn't help Holmes much in 1985 when Larry was lucky to get a decision over him.

I wish a mod would step in and wave this thread off because your arguments are getting pummeled on all sides.

By who?

Larry Holmes beat Tim Witherspoon.
Larry Holmes beat Carl Williams.

Close fights he won is the best you guys can come up with to try to cut him down.

Most people had him losing to Williams. The blatant ducking is also a big problem

You could make a good case that it was the worst decision in the history of heavy weight boxing. Willoiams seemed to have won a one-sided decision. The judges somehow had the opposite. Holmes looked terrible.

[gilgamesh]

Lennox Lewis vs Holyfield 1 is probably the worst decision I've seen in Heavyweight Boxing. I had that one 10 rounds to 2 for Lewis

[Cojimar 1946]

Part of the problem with the lineage argument is that public attitudes have changed.

Back in the day you could draw the color line but today that wouldn't be acceptable and any fighter who tried to do it would immediately lose recognition as champ.

Suppose some racist south African won the title off Holmes and refused to fight Tyson and Holyfield who hence never held the lineal title. Would anyone be arguing that they weren't real champions? I suspect anyone who tried would be ridiculed.

[gilgamesh]

Part of the problem with the lineage argument is that public attitudes have changed.

Back in the day you could draw the color line but today that wouldn't be acceptable and any fighter who tried to do it would immediately lose recognition as champ.

Suppose some racist south African won the title off Holmes and refused to fight Tyson and Holyfield who hence never held the lineal title. Would anyone be arguing that they weren't real champions? I suspect anyone who tried would be ridiculed.

But that didn't happen.

And yes of course they'd be ridiculed. I can't imagine how hard and heavy the ridicule would come if you tried to draw the color line these days.

The Lineal Title is and always will be the most important of all Boxing Championships. There are title holders, and there are Champions. The only people who are Genuine Champions were Lineal Champions.

[Cojimar 1946]

Mike Tyson was the genuine champ without holding lineage though

The general public has moved beyond lineage when it comes to deciding who the champ is

[gilgamesh]

Mike Tyson was the genuine champ without holding lineage though

The general public has moved beyond lineage when it comes to deciding who the champ is

Tyson won the Lineal title. He held lineage. Nobody that was ever considered to be THE MAN ever didn't capture the lineage.

On very rare occasions somebody that wasn't considered THE MAN captured it and didn't hold it long, because THE MAN is always there to take it away from the pretender in every era without fail.

[Cojimar 1946]

The fact that the public considered him the real champ prior to being lineal proves lineal doesn't matter to the general public anymore.

In 1987 Tyson was considered the champ and not Spinks

[Cojimar 1946]

Wlad was also widely considered the MAN without ever clearly establishing lineage or unifying

[gilgamesh]

Wlad was also widely considered the MAN without ever clearly establishing lineage or unifying

He unified 3 of the 4 belts and beat all of the most noteworthy contenders save for his Brother and established a new lineage.

It wasn't as fully established as other Lineal Champions, but it was as good as it could've been considering the circumstances of his era. Shame we never got Wlad vs Wilder or Stiverne for all 4 belts.

[gilgamesh]

The fact that the public considered him the real champ prior to being lineal proves lineal doesn't matter to the general public anymore.

In 1987 Tyson was considered the champ and not Spinks

And yet Tyson and his team still felt the need to beat Spinks because Lineal mattered to them, and mattered enough that the public wanted that fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

The fact that the public considered him the real champ prior to being lineal proves lineal doesn't matter to the general public anymore.

In 1987 Tyson was considered the champ and not Spinks

Got any facts to back that up?

[Cojimar 1946]

Wlad was also widely considered the MAN without ever clearly establishing lineage or unifying

He unified 3 of the 4 belts and beat all of the most noteworthy contenders save for his Brother and established a new lineage.

It wasn't as fully established as other Lineal Champions, but it was as good as it could've been considering the circumstances of his era. Shame we never got Wlad vs Wilder or Stiverne for all 4 belts.

You establish a new lineage by unifying or beating the best guy aside from yourself. Wlad did neither.

After Vitali retired Fury was the best contender outside Wlad himself and he didn't ever beat him.

[gilgamesh]

Wlad was also widely considered the MAN without ever clearly establishing lineage or unifying

He unified 3 of the 4 belts and beat all of the most noteworthy contenders save for his Brother and established a new lineage.

It wasn't as fully established as other Lineal Champions, but it was as good as it could've been considering the circumstances of his era. Shame we never got Wlad vs Wilder or Stiverne for all 4 belts.

You establish a new lineage by unifying or beating the best guy aside from yourself. Wlad did neither.

After Vitali retired Fury was the best contender outside Wlad himself and he didn't ever beat him.

He beat the next best guy that wasn't his brother on more than one occasion. I think he can be forgiven for not fighting his brother. Nobody fights their brother.

[Cojimar 1946]

If the two best guys are brothers and don't want to fight than the logical conclusion is that the lineal title stays vacant. There isn't a lineal exception for cases when the two best guys don't care to face each other for whatever reason.

[gilgamesh]

If the two best guys are brothers and don't want to fight than the logical conclusion is that the lineal title stays vacant. There isn't a lineal exception for cases when the two best guys don't care to face each other for whatever reason.

Yes, Wladimir Klitschko was the Ring Magazine heavyweight champion

He won the Ring Magazine heavyweight title by defeating Ruslan Chagaev in June 2009.

He held and successfully defended the title for over six years during his dominant unified championship reign.

The Ring Magazine Title, and the Lineal title is generally considered the same, not always, but in most cases that's the way it goes.

Vitali held The Ring title as well actually briefly in 2004, but because his run with it so was brief I don't consider him to have ever been a Lineal Champion. Wladimir did everything he could've done to establish himself as Champion, and he DID establish himself as Champion. The disagreement of a few matters not. The majority opinion of Boxing insiders, pundits and experts is that Wladimir became the man to beat during his reign.

[SteveO]

Yes indeed. Wlad was the man.

[Cap]

In reply to the original question, Tyson blows out Bowe inside eight rounds. Too much constant pressure from Mike for slow moving Bowe. Most likely Bowe would have ducked a fight with Tyson.

[Ambling Alp II]

Tyson may have won, but Bowe would not have ducked him.

[Cojimar 1946]

Bowe didn't show much inclination to fight top contenders outside Holyfield. There is no reason to think a Tyson fight would have ever happened

[Ambling Alp II]

That's not really true. He signed contracts to fight Lewis and Mercer. They fell through when they had upset losses.

[gilgamesh]

That's not really true. He signed contracts to fight Lewis and Mercer. They fell through when they had upset losses.

He ducked Lewis. He don't get a pass on tossing the belt in the trash to avoid him.

You're right though that he was lined up to fight Mercer and Mercer blew it. Bowe would've kicked Mercer's ass.

As far as Tyson or Bowe ducking each other. I could see either man being not too keen to fight that fight honestly. They probably eventually would've done it for the money involved, but I don't think either of those 2 were in any hurry to fight each other.

[Ambling Alp II]

Bowe wanted the majority of the purse not 50-50. The champion almost always gets more than the challenger. Fighters often what they have to for financial reasons.
you could just easily argue that Lennix Lewis ducked mandatory contender John Ruiz.

Bowe later did sign to fight in 1994. It fell through because Lewis got upset by McCall.
So no, Bowe did not duck Lewis. That is a myth.

If Mercer fought like he was capable of, he would have had a serious chance of beating Bowe. Mercer could fight at very high level. (It's not like he was a Tommy Morrison or something). Or Mercer might have fought a lackluster fight and lost badly.

[Cojimar 1946]

You can't argue that Lewis ducked Ruiz though because he agreed to fight him after facing Grant.

[Ambling Alp II]

Obviously, Lewis wasn't afraid of Ruiz. But he didn't fight him when he had the mandatory. And Bowe agreed to fight Lewis earlier.

Neither of these were really "ducks".

[Cojimar 1946]

Obviously, Lewis wasn't afraid of Ruiz. But he didn't fight him when he had the mandatory. And Bowe agreed to fight Lewis earlier.

Neither of these were really "ducks".

He had an agreement to fight him after facing Grant. A judge overturned that agreement after the Grant fight had already been signed.

Lewis on the other hand was considered the biggest fight possible aside from Tyson for much of his career and never happened despite multiple opportunities to make it happen