Where do you place Lennox Lewis as an ATG heavyweight

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Nov 2006, 10:07

Lewis comes out better than I expected also in this one.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 28 Nov 2006, 13:42

I think one problem is that Lewis doesn't have a signature win or rival. He fought Holyfield and Tyson passed their primes.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 29 Nov 2006, 00:03

I agree true that he didn't really have one signature win,although that's not entirely his fault. Bowe didn't fight him,and Tyson waited until he was past it before Lewis had a chance to knock him out.

You could also say that Holmes, Dempsey, and Tyson himself never had a "signature win" as well. I guess it's what you consider a signature win.

I rate him #10 all time (behind Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano, Dempsey, and Holyfield). Anyone rating him below #15 is someone who doesn't want to look objectively at his career.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 29 Nov 2006, 02:04

What are you kidding?.........The only list Lewis makes is being the best of the worst period in HW history.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 29 Nov 2006, 04:59

ringsider wrote:What are you kidding?.........The only list Lewis makes is being the best of the worst period in HW history.

1992-2003 was better than it is now

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 29 Nov 2006, 08:23

Collins2000 wrote:
Thunder and Lightning wrote:To me he fits in the top 10 he did beat all the HW that were willing to fight him in his era exept maybe Ruiz (and thank the lord for that).
As for his two losses every fighter can have bad luck and get nailed like Ali who got knocked on his ass by cooper that shouldn't have happned either.
the difference was that ali got up and went on to stop cooper whereas........ well you know the rest.

Shame Lewis did'nt get knocked down as the bell sounded.Maybe he would have recovered.....

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 29 Nov 2006, 08:30

I rate him top 10,between 6-10.
He certainly features above Holyfield and Tyson(the other main men form around his era)
Tyson barely makes top 15,with the warrior coming in around 13.

One thing is for sure,Lewis on his best night would give any heavy in history fits.I would'nt bet large amounts on many beating him.

JC · Post by JC » 29 Nov 2006, 09:38

seeing as we seem to be having a Lennox love-in this past week here's a good highlight vid of his career.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTPzQvlYLvE

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Nov 2006, 10:47

ringsider wrote:What are you kidding?.........The only list Lewis makes is being the best of the worst period in HW history.

Totally wrong. The Lewis-Holyfield-Tyson-Bowe period was one of the better ones in history. I rank only the 1970s and the 1930s above it.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 29 Nov 2006, 13:43

pundit wrote:
ringsider wrote:What are you kidding?.........The only list Lewis makes is being the best of the worst period in HW history.
Totally wrong. The Lewis-Holyfield-Tyson-Bowe period was one of the better ones in history. I rank only the 1970s and the 1930s above it.

Lewis, Tyson, Holy and Bowe would make it into most peoples top 20-25 heavyweight lists ever.
4 excellent fighters in one era sounds good to me!

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Nov 2006, 15:43

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:
pundit wrote:
ringsider wrote:What are you kidding?.........The only list Lewis makes is being the best of the worst period in HW history.
Totally wrong. The Lewis-Holyfield-Tyson-Bowe period was one of the better ones in history. I rank only the 1970s and the 1930s above it.
Lewis, Tyson, Holy and Bowe would make it into most peoples top 20-25 heavyweight lists ever.
4 excellent fighters in one era sounds good to me!

As far as I am concerned: Lewis, Tyson and Holy yes, Bowe no. Borderline top 30.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 29 Nov 2006, 15:45

yiddo14 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
Thunder and Lightning wrote:To me he fits in the top 10 he did beat all the HW that were willing to fight him in his era exept maybe Ruiz (and thank the lord for that).
As for his two losses every fighter can have bad luck and get nailed like Ali who got knocked on his ass by cooper that shouldn't have happned either.
the difference was that ali got up and went on to stop cooper whereas........ well you know the rest.
Shame Lewis did'nt get knocked down as the bell sounded.Maybe he would have recovered.....

That's just the thing though. Everyone of the Lewis nuthuggers is forced to rely on 'if' and 'but' when making out a case for a totally ridiculous top 5 inclusion.

"if only the ref had let him continue again mccall" (hahahaha Oliver feckin mccall)

"But Rahman was a big lad with a big punch and Lewis took him lightly (hahahaha Hasim feckin Rahman)"

As I see it, Lennox was pole-axed by 2 complete stiffs in his prime. Nice...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Nov 2006, 15:48

There is no doubt in my mind that Lewis should be rated above Carnera.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Nov 2006, 15:54

Collins2000 wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote: the difference was that ali got up and went on to stop cooper whereas........ well you know the rest.
Shame Lewis did'nt get knocked down as the bell sounded.Maybe he would have recovered.....
That's just the thing though. Everyone of the Lewis nuthuggers is forced to rely on 'if' and 'but' when making out a case for a totally ridiculous top 5 inclusion.

"if only the ref had let him continue again mccall" (hahahaha Oliver feckin mccall)

"But Rahman was a big lad with a big punch and Lewis took him lightly (hahahaha Hasim feckin Rahman)"

As I see it, Lennox was pole-axed by 2 complete stiffs in his prime. Nice...

See, my view is that this doesn't matter very much. He avenged the defeats, and anyway it makes only limited sense to assess fighters' quality by their worst fights. I'd rather take their best and most meaningful ones, which in the case of Lewis means: the Holyfield bouts, Ruddock, Golota, Tua.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 29 Nov 2006, 17:08

pundit wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
yiddo14 wrote: Shame Lewis did'nt get knocked down as the bell sounded.Maybe he would have recovered.....
That's just the thing though. Everyone of the Lewis nuthuggers is forced to rely on 'if' and 'but' when making out a case for a totally ridiculous top 5 inclusion.

"if only the ref had let him continue again mccall" (hahahaha Oliver feckin mccall)

"But Rahman was a big lad with a big punch and Lewis took him lightly (hahahaha Hasim feckin Rahman)"

As I see it, Lennox was pole-axed by 2 complete stiffs in his prime. Nice...

See, my view is that this doesn't matter very much. He avenged the defeats, and anyway it makes only limited sense to assess fighters' quality by their worst fights. I'd rather take their best and most meaningful ones, which in the case of Lewis means: the Holyfield bouts, Ruddock, Golota, Tua.

Are we talking head to head here or what?

If we are, surely being KO'd twice in your prime by stiffs has some bearing on hypothetical matchups.

Or has this thread become so far-fetched that we are supposed to ignore actual results in favour of wishful 'if and but' scenarios.

If we want to devalue the ATG tag and give it to anyone who strings together a few decent wins over mediocre and/or past their best contenders interspaced with two terrible losses then OK Lewis deserves the tag............ but then so do hundreds of other fighters.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Nov 2006, 18:31

Collins2000 wrote:
pundit wrote:
Collins2000 wrote: That's just the thing though. Everyone of the Lewis nuthuggers is forced to rely on 'if' and 'but' when making out a case for a totally ridiculous top 5 inclusion.

"if only the ref had let him continue again mccall" (hahahaha Oliver feckin mccall)

"But Rahman was a big lad with a big punch and Lewis took him lightly (hahahaha Hasim feckin Rahman)"

As I see it, Lennox was pole-axed by 2 complete stiffs in his prime. Nice...

See, my view is that this doesn't matter very much. He avenged the defeats, and anyway it makes only limited sense to assess fighters' quality by their worst fights. I'd rather take their best and most meaningful ones, which in the case of Lewis means: the Holyfield bouts, Ruddock, Golota, Tua.
Are we talking head to head here or what?

If we are, surely being KO'd twice in your prime by stiffs has some bearing on hypothetical matchups.

Not really. Against top-notch opposition Lewis always came in top notch.

Or has this thread become so far-fetched that we are supposed to ignore actual results in favour of wishful 'if and but' scenarios.

No. But the best way to compare fighters seems to me to look at what they could do at their peak, and not at what mishaps happened to them. An unmotivated Lewis was sloppy a couple of times and got spanked by fighters he otherwise would have owned (and did own in the refight) - so what. A bit embarassing but really not very important.

Btw, I believe indeed that there are not many fighters in history who would have had these fights against still very good Holyfield, prime Ruddock, prime Golota, and prime Tua. Fewer than 10.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Nov 2006, 18:49

George Foreman always spoke highly of Lewis. I generally respect his opinion, in fact I have gone over some of George's comments and went back and looked at the fights he mentioned and it raised my opinion of Lewis. Lewis may have had more potential than he showed. He always seemed a bit robotic for my senses, but he delivered pretty well overall. He just never seemed like the great overall talent that George made him out to be.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 29 Nov 2006, 21:16

BoxBuzz wrote:George Foreman always spoke highly of Lewis. I generally respect his opinion, in fact I have gone over some of George's comments and went back and looked at the fights he mentioned and it raised my opinion of Lewis. Lewis may have had more potential than he showed. He always seemed a bit robotic for my senses, but he delivered pretty well overall. He just never seemed like the great overall talent that George made him out to be.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. If he really was an ATG would a connoisseur like yourself have to use a statement like that?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Nov 2006, 23:21

Yeah, when it comes to Lewis I"m always sort of looking for reasons to give him a break. He just doesn't rise to that "great" level in any way that I can recognize. So I try to have faith in others that they are seeing something I'm missing.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 30 Nov 2006, 03:15

Everyone is entitled to their own opinon.
Pundit pretty much summed it up at the start by saying there would be no defending people who rated Lewis in either the top 5 or lower than 20.
I agree with this.

All those who say he is'nt an all time great,and not worthy of being put in an all time top 15 heavyweight list,I would like to see the names you think would have dealt with a fit,focused Lennox Lewis.
I can't come up with many to be honest,maybe the usual suspects like Ali,Louis and Holmes...but these are the 3 greatest heavyweights ever.
I would like to see some of the Lewis knockers come up with 10-12 more names!!

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 30 Nov 2006, 03:26

Collins2000 wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote: the difference was that ali got up and went on to stop cooper whereas........ well you know the rest.
Shame Lewis did'nt get knocked down as the bell sounded.Maybe he would have recovered.....
That's just the thing though. Everyone of the Lewis nuthuggers is forced to rely on 'if' and 'but' when making out a case for a totally ridiculous top 5 inclusion.

"if only the ref had let him continue again mccall" (hahahaha Oliver feckin mccall)

"But Rahman was a big lad with a big punch and Lewis took him lightly (hahahaha Hasim feckin Rahman)"

As I see it, Lennox was pole-axed by 2 complete stiffs in his prime. Nice...

To start with,what I said was tongue in cheek.I ain't one for could of's or should of's.

Fact is this,Lewis lost to 2 lesser fighters.I would'nt dream of trying to defend that.
I think your assesment of two world heavyweight champions(one of them was a 2 time world champion!!)is a little harsh though!

Lewis makes my top 10 based on what he can do at his best.
Same as Joe Louis making top spot for me,I look at what he was capable of on his best night.I don't put the Joe Louis that got sparked by Max Schmeling as number 1,or the Ali that lost to Norton as my number 2.

Incidently,where would you rank Mike Tyson in an all time list?
The biggest if and but,should of,would of,could of man to ever be involved in the sport?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 30 Nov 2006, 04:53

yiddo14 wrote:Everyone is entitled to their own opinon.
Pundit pretty much summed it up at the start by saying there would be no defending people who rated Lewis in either the top 5 or lower than 20.
I agree with this.

All those who say he is'nt an all time great,and not worthy of being put in an all time top 15 heavyweight list,I would like to see the names you think would have dealt with a fit,focused Lennox Lewis.
I can't come up with many to be honest,maybe the usual suspects like Ali,Louis and Holmes...but these are the 3 greatest heavyweights ever.
I would like to see some of the Lewis knockers come up with 10-12 more names!!

You say you agree there is no defence for having him in the top 5.......... then in the same post you say, apart from maybe Ali, Louis and Holmes you can't think of anyone else who deserves to be ahead of Lewis.

What more can I say?

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 30 Nov 2006, 04:56

Lewis was almost 36 when Rahman beat him....

Hardly a prime age?
At 36 Holyfield was dominated by Lewis, Holmes surrended his title to an ex light heavyweight, Frazier was finished, and Ali lost to Leon Spinks!

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 30 Nov 2006, 05:02

yiddo14 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
yiddo14 wrote: Shame Lewis did'nt get knocked down as the bell sounded.Maybe he would have recovered.....
That's just the thing though. Everyone of the Lewis nuthuggers is forced to rely on 'if' and 'but' when making out a case for a totally ridiculous top 5 inclusion.

"if only the ref had let him continue again mccall" (hahahaha Oliver feckin mccall)

"But Rahman was a big lad with a big punch and Lewis took him lightly (hahahaha Hasim feckin Rahman)"

As I see it, Lennox was pole-axed by 2 complete stiffs in his prime. Nice...

To start with,what I said was tongue in cheek.I ain't one for could of's or should of's.

Fact is this,Lewis lost to 2 lesser fighters.I would'nt dream of trying to defend that.
I think your assesment of two world heavyweight champions(one of them was a 2 time world champion!!)is a little harsh though!

Lewis makes my top 10 based on what he can do at his best.
Same as Joe Louis making top spot for me,I look at what he was capable of on his best night.I don't put the Joe Louis that got sparked by Max Schmeling as number 1,or the Ali that lost to Norton as my number 2.

Incidently,where would you rank Mike Tyson in an all time list?
The biggest if and but,should of,would of,could of man to ever be involved in the sport?

2 times heavyweight champ or not (and I shudder even writing that), Rahman is a stiff.

Let's put it into perspective, how many of the previous heavyweight champs would you fancy him to beat on their respective best days? You can include for consideration all the other fake alphabet ones of recent time to get a few runs on the board.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 30 Nov 2006, 05:08

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Lewis was almost 36 when Rahman beat him....

Hardly a prime age?
At 36 Holyfield was dominated by Lewis, Holmes surrended his title to an ex light heavyweight, Frazier was finished, and Ali lost to Leon Spinks!

Age is misleading. If Lewis had fought the calibre of fighters that those last 3 ATGs had fought he'd have been finished well before 36. He'd also have been KO'd at least a dozen times based on his being pole-axed by such men as McCall and Rahman.