Marvin Hagler KO3 Roy Jones

[The Great John L]

FACT:

Hagler was a far inferior fighter to the best fighters who held the 160 pound title over the years.

By earlier well established standards in the sport he was not a championship level fighter.

Championship middleweights do not struggle with lighweights.

Sorry, but this still looks more like your opinion than fact. I suggest you study hard and learn what the word fact means.

Are you saying that Ketchel, Walker, Greb, Zale, DID NOT beat fighters bigger than they were?

You are admitting that you are unfamiliar with Ketchel, Greb, Walker, Zale, etc.

In other words, you are unfamiliar with the history of the middleweight division.

That puts you on a par with the Ali salesman who regurgitate the Ali industry talking points without any familiarity with the past history of the heavyweight division.

Try reading your own posts chief. You didn’t say that.

I think you may be confusing yourself with too many cranberry facts.

[KOJOE90]

Championship middleweights do not struggle with lighweights.

Do you mean like when Harry Greb failed to stop former Lightweight Jack Blackburn?

Or do you mean like when Light-Heavyweight Philadelphia Jack O'Brien also failed to the Lightweight Blackburn?

[granberry]

Championship middleweights do not struggle with lighweights.

Do you mean like when Harry Greb failed to stop former Lightweight Jack Blackburn?

Or do you mean like when Light-Heavyweight Philadelphia Jack O'Brien also failed to the Lightweight Blackburn?

Are you referring to the Blackburn who got out of prison after stabbing several people to death and then fought as a heavyweight?

I am referring to the Harry Greb who beat Gene Tunney and Tommy Gibbons. Are you familiar with who they are?

Do you have any inkling who Harry Greb is?

From boxrec:

1908-06-10 162 Jack Blackburn 147½ 65-7-16
National A.C., Philadelphia, PA, USA W NWS 6 6
"Jack O'Brien tonight defeated Jack Blackburn, colored, in a six round bout before the National Athletic Club. O'Brien knocked Blackburn down in the opening round and in the final round had the colored man hanging on to avoid punishment. The bout was one of the fastest ever seen in this city." (Nevada State Journal) The Philadelphia Item also reported that O'Brien was the winner.

Duran stood directly in front of Hagler for 15 rounds and lost a close 15 round decision to supposed middleweight champion Hagler.

It was not a six round fight and Duran was not knocked down twice

as OBrien did with 147 pound Blackburn.

[KOJOE90]

Championship middleweights do not struggle with lighweights.

Do you mean like when Harry Greb failed to stop former Lightweight Jack Blackburn?

Or do you mean like when Light-Heavyweight Philadelphia Jack O'Brien also failed to the Lightweight Blackburn?

Are you referring to the Blackburn who got out of prison after stabbing several people to death and then fought as a heavyweight?

I am referring to the Harry Greb who beat Gene Tunney and Tommy Gibbons. Are you familiar with who they are?

Do you have any inkling who Harry Greb is?

Yes, but that doen't answer my question.

[granberry]

KO (what a presumptuous name to take)

YOU have not answered my questions.

You don't have a clue who Harry Greb is (or Gene Tunney, or Tommy Gibbons), do you.

[KOJOE90]

KO (what a presumptuous name to take)

YOU have not answered my questions.

You don't have a clue who Harry Greb is (or Gene Tunney, or Tommy Gibbons), do you.

Harry Greb was one of the greatest Middleweights who ever lived, and was perpetual motion in the ring from what I have read. He was as tough as they come, would fight ANYONE and was amazingly active. but his eye was not as tough as Kid Norfolks (according to Greb)

He was taken from us too soon and we will never see his like again.

Gene Tunney was a very highly skilled and intelligent Light-Heavyweight, who first proved his toughnes when taking a vicious beating off Greb. Tunney licked his wounds, came back and beat Greb a number of times and went on to win the Heavyweight Title from an aging Jack Dempsey, this was not the 'real' Dempsey, but still a great achievement.

Tommy Gibbons (Mikes brother) was a highly skilled fighter with an outstanding defence who fought from Middleweight to Heavyweight with great success I'm not one for top-ten lists but I would not ague with anyone putting Gibbons well into the elite of all time 175lbs ranking.

[KOJOE90]

KO (what a presumptuous name to take)

Lets try and keep this subject mature and on the subject of Boxing.

[dr_devious]

KO (what a presumptuous name to take)

YOU have not answered my questions.

You don't have a clue who Harry Greb is (or Gene Tunney, or Tommy Gibbons), do you.

Its clear you dont have a clue who Marvin Hagler is

[KOJOE90]

KO (what a presumptuous name to take)

YOU have not answered my questions.

You don't have a clue who Harry Greb is (or Gene Tunney, or Tommy Gibbons), do you.

Harry Greb was one of the greatest Middleweights who ever lived, and was perpetual motion in the ring from what I have read. He was as tough as they come, would fight ANYONE and was amazingly active. but his eye was not as tough as Kid Norfolks (according to Greb)

He was taken from us too soon and we will never see his like again.

Gene Tunney was a very highly skilled and intelligent Light-Heavyweight, who first proved his toughnes when taking a vicious beating off Greb. Tunney licked his wounds, came back and beat Greb a number of times and went on to win the Heavyweight Title from an aging Jack Dempsey, this was not the 'real' Dempsey, but still a great achievement.

Tommy Gibbons (Mikes brother) was a highly skilled fighter with an outstanding defence who fought from Middleweight to Heavyweight with great success I'm not one for top-ten lists but I would not ague with anyone putting Gibbons well into the elite of all time 175lbs ranking.

Is that what you were looking for?

Or are you more interested in making further comments on my chosen username?

I look forward to your response.

[granberry]

Is that what you were looking for?

Or are you more interested in making further comments on my chosen username?

I look forward to your response.

I'm not "looking for" anything from you.

As for your choice of username, very few fighters in the entire history of boxing ever had the knickname KO, and they earned it.

[KOJOE90]

I'm not "looking for" anything from you..

Then why ask a question if you were not 'looking for' an answer? Or has the fact that I anwered it upset you?

As for your choice of username, very few fighters in the entire history of boxing ever had the knickname KO, and they earned it.

I chose this username as a tribute to you, becuase you are my hero and my only quest in life is to please you.

I await your silence or random musings.

[ringsider]

Like I said...dingle berry.

[BoxBuzz]

granberry, have a coke, sit down, relax, breathe deep. Opinions run wide........unusual and uniformed or is it uninformed...opinions are just as valid as any others. I don't see why you feel the need to attack someones moniker....we prefer to disagree about subject matter rather than labels.

[granberry]

granberry, have a coke, sit down, relax, breathe deep. Opinions run wide........unusual and uniformed or is it uninformed...opinions are just as valid as any others. I don't see why you feel the need to attack someones moniker....we prefer to disagree about subject matter rather than labels.

You mean like this?

Like I said...dingle berry.

[ringsider]

No....like this....

granberry=dingleberry

[KOJOE90]

KO (what a presumptuous name to take)

YOU have not answered my questions.

You don't have a clue who Harry Greb is (or Gene Tunney, or Tommy Gibbons), do you.

Harry Greb was one of the greatest Middleweights who ever lived, and was perpetual motion in the ring from what I have read. He was as tough as they come, would fight ANYONE and was amazingly active. but his eye was not as tough as Kid Norfolks (according to Greb)

He was taken from us too soon and we will never see his like again.

Gene Tunney was a very highly skilled and intelligent Light-Heavyweight, who first proved his toughnes when taking a vicious beating off Greb. Tunney licked his wounds, came back and beat Greb a number of times and went on to win the Heavyweight Title from an aging Jack Dempsey, this was not the 'real' Dempsey, but still a great achievement.

Tommy Gibbons (Mikes brother) was a highly skilled fighter with an outstanding defence who fought from Middleweight to Heavyweight with great success I'm not one for top-ten lists but I would not ague with anyone putting Gibbons well into the elite of all time 175lbs ranking.

Is that what you were looking for?

Or are you more interested in making further comments on my chosen username?

I look forward to your response.

Your silence speaks a thousand words. Shame you prefere to mock people that enter into a lively debate about Boxing, share and exchange views on this wonderfully deep and interesting sport.

[ringsider]

Rage is blind, whose legs did Hagler borrow in the fights in which he did move well?

And so are Hagler fans. Hagler never moved well in any of his fights. Just watch him. He was always a plodding, trip over his own feet, foot in the bucket southpaw......Don't confuse being in shape and being able to go the distance, with footwork and movement.

[granberry]

Poster 'Terence' shows what he has to offer:

Granberry, how did you find out Hagler was banging your missus? Did you catch them in the act?

Rage is blind, whose legs did Hagler borrow in the fights in which he did move well?

[granberry]

Poster 'ringsider ' shows what he has to offer.

No....like this....

granberry=dingleberry

[Senya13]

Footwork is not dancing, look at Roy Jones, nice dancer in his prime, cannot out-move Johnson and has poor footwork that finds him on the ropes taking shots a lot.

Was there a single time in that fight Jones even attempted to dance a little more than one or two springy steps? It had nothing to do with Jones being unable to out-move Johnson, when he never put any efforts into even trying to move around in that fight.

[ringsider]

He was not leaden-footed.

Surely you are not talking about Hagler? Just watch his fights.

If you are talking about Hagler not being leaden-footed, then you need to get off the crack pipe.

[Collins2000]

He was not leaden-footed.

Surely you are not talking about Hagler? Just watch his fights.

If you are talking about Hagler not being leaden-footed, then you need to get off the crack pipe.

Has anyone on here ever agreed with your call on Hagler being 'lead-footed'?

[ringsider]

I have said Hagler was a plodder, off balance, tripping over his own feet.....(Look at the tribute video)and yes there have been a couple who have agreed. I have never thought of him as "leaden-footed", but if the shoe fits....

I had all the time in the world for Marvin Hagler, having championed his cause in those dark days of the late seventies when he seemed to be the leading contender for an age before getting his shot. But I don’t believe he would have beaten Monzon. Little things stick in your mind about certain fighters, and I recall how tentative and uncertain Hagler seemed in his cautious victory over Roberto Duran.

Roberto was very similar to Monzon in his brazen confidence and fiery attitude. Duran intimidated opponents, and I have always believed that he and Ray Leonard were the only fighters who were able to plant the seed of doubt in Marvin’s mind.

Monzon was a very deliberate animal in his nature but he could always find a Plan B when the need arose. Hagler was less flexible in this regard and didn’t seem able to fully commit himself to an alternative game plan. My gut instinct tells me that Monzon would have forced Hagler up a blind alley and prevented him from getting sufficiently untracked to save the day

And that is what a boxing writer says about Hagler. Someone who supposedly knows more about the sport than I.

What I do know is a one dimensional fighter when I am seeing it. Hagler was a one dimensional southpaw. The stuff about him switching to orthodox was a lot of BS. Hagler could not box righthanded to save his a$$. Look what Ray Leonard did to him the first 4 rounds. My old boxing coach taught me well what I was looking at.

[Collins2000]

I have said Hagler was a plodder, off balance, tripping over his own feet.....(Look at the tribute video)and yes there have been a couple who have agreed. I have never thought of him as "leaden-footed", but if the shoe fits....

I had all the time in the world for Marvin Hagler, having championed his cause in those dark days of the late seventies when he seemed to be the leading contender for an age before getting his shot. But I don’t believe he would have beaten Monzon. Little things stick in your mind about certain fighters, and I recall how tentative and uncertain Hagler seemed in his cautious victory over Roberto Duran.

Roberto was very similar to Monzon in his brazen confidence and fiery attitude. Duran intimidated opponents, and I have always believed that he and Ray Leonard were the only fighters who were able to plant the seed of doubt in Marvin’s mind.

Monzon was a very deliberate animal in his nature but he could always find a Plan B when the need arose. Hagler was less flexible in this regard and didn’t seem able to fully commit himself to an alternative game plan. My gut instinct tells me that Monzon would have forced Hagler up a blind alley and prevented him from getting sufficiently untracked to save the day

And that is what a boxing writer says about Hagler. Someone who supposedly knows more about the sport than I.

What I do know is a one dimensional fighter when I am seeing it. Hagler was a one dimensional southpaw. The stuff about him switching to orthodox was a lot of BS. Hagler could not box righthanded to save his a$$. Look what Ray Leonard did to him the first 4 rounds. My old boxing coach taught me well what I was looking at.

The quote you gave mentioned nothing about Hagler being leaden-footed.

Didn't you notice that?

[Senya13]

Why should good footwork equate to dancing?

It shouldn't. It wasn't me, who called Jones a dancer. He relied on in-and-out movement a lot more than he moved around the ring.

You missed the point. Hagler had very good

I didn't say a word about Hagler.

Jones, once his legs went, did not know his way around the ring. Tarver and Johnson are both quite poor fighters and look what they did to him.

You missed the point. In the fight with Glen Johnson Roy never even attempted to use foot movement in any round of the fight. For some reason he intentionally stayed flat-footed all the time, and past the 1st round it wasn't Johnson not giving him time or space to do that, as Glen was just following Jones slowly around most of the time, leaving Roy enough time to dance away, Roy just never attempted to do that.
In the rubber match with Tarver Roy showed some decent footwork, his legs certainly didn't look shot in that one (although not what they once were either).