Marvin Hagler KO3 Roy Jones

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 27 Mar 2007, 06:55

Guys... this is emphatically NOT Roy Jones dad. Snr tried claim it was back in the late 80s when Jr turned pro, but some research and investigagtion by The Ring promptly proved it was a different Roy Jones.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 27 Mar 2007, 06:57

Terence wrote:I heard a rumour that this was a different Roy Jones. Not the father of the Roy we know. Any truth in that?

Exactly. You are correct.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 27 Mar 2007, 09:39

The quote you gave mentioned nothing about Hagler being leaden-footed.

I know it didn't, What hisname called hagler "leaden-footed". The article quote pointed out Hagler as being one dimensional, unable to adapt. I have said that many times. Only if you stood infront of Hagler could he get you. He sure could not box worth a hoot.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 27 Mar 2007, 09:43

Watch the fight again, beyond the 1st round. Jones had plenty of time to move away from the ropes, but didn't choose to do so. Glen Johnson was slowly following him around with casual jabs.

If you mean the punch that hurt Jones badly in the 11th round of 3rd Tarver fight, Jones wasn't leaning back away from a punch, he was throwing his own punch the time he got caught.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Mar 2007, 10:44

Terence

Great call on Jones Snr.

A lot of guys with great physical gifts often start to take their skills for granted. It happens in all sports. The Johnson defeat was the real shocker for me. It wasn't that Roy lost. He had obviously slowed down and lost something but he looked frightened and confused. The fatest, slowest, least prepared Duran often looked p155ed off and frustrated but he always had a compass in the ring.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 27 Mar 2007, 12:16

On the first point, I will answer that you have to recall the Merqui Sosa fight, as one of the examples. It was very close to Jones' absolute peak. Why did he choose to just stand there and slug it out with "the best chin in boxing" and "the heaviest 175lb puncher" (according to the Ring), was he out of his wits there?

The second one, Jones threw a lazy jab and was stepping forward (thinking that Tarver would step back), preparing to throw a right hand, but Tarver, instead of stepping back, desided to duck low, and threw an overhand right hook (without even looking at Jones at the time he was throwing it, it was the second time a lucky punch worked for him).

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 27 Mar 2007, 14:30

I could tell you another 10 to 20 fights where Jones also went to the ropes in situations where he could easily escape the opponents' pressure or where they weren't pressuring him at all. The thing is Jones can fight off the ropes better than anyone else I can recall on film. Both the defense and the offense are as good as they can possibly be, when he stands there. Tarver-1 was the only exception where he mostly blocked punches than use upper body and head movement. It is there in the Glen Johnson fight also, if you spend some time watching him do the rope-a-dope in slow motion, the way he rolls with punches, pulls away or ducks low, not letting anything land flush.
Roy was used to fighting off the ropes from the times he was an amateur, he had th experience and the skills to slug it out with anyone who dares to fight him there.

As for lucky punches, just watch the replay between the rounds, and deside for yourself, whether it was intended that way by Tarver, or whether it was an accidental punch. Also pay attention to the fact that Tarver didn't realize it immediately what happened, and Roy had a couple of seconds before Tarver knew he was hurt and went for the kill. He clearly didn't expect that his punch would do that.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 28 Mar 2007, 07:25

How many clean punches did Woods land?

Versus Glen Johnson, I again invite you to spend 15 minutes to watch the first several rounds of the fight. Although Roy countered the opponent a lot less often than we have been used in the past, his defense was still very good there.

You are saying irrelevant things concerning the punch Tarver landed there. Whatever other punches Tarver landed doesn't make the punch that hurt Roy less lucky. Because of the way it was thrown and because of the reaction of tarver himself to the effect of that punch.

Roy showed much better defense in his fights where he fought off the ropes, than Ali ever showed, as well as he countered his opponents a lot more often and more effectively than Ali, if we are to take better version of Jones than the one who fought Tarver or Johnson. But if you insist on considering these fights as well, then we will have to consider all poor efforts of Ali when he fought his members of the bum of the month club later in his career, and where he looked plain terrible.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 29 Mar 2007, 09:22

Terence wrote:You say Ali looked terrible, well he never once looked unconscious.

LOL.. what a great line.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 29 Mar 2007, 09:31

Terence wrote:I was going to say that Ali makes more sense now than Jones is making but that would be cruel

Your restraint is greatly appreciated.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 29 Mar 2007, 10:37

Senya, you clearly love RJJ, but jesus fella give it up. You really are severely, severely (note twice) delusional.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 29 Mar 2007, 12:00

Terence wrote:Woods landed enough shots to give Roy a swollen eye.

Andrade just got a beating of his life, but it was Kessler who came out with marks on his face.

You are in the, frankly, untenable position of trying to defend the version of Roy who was KO'd in consecutive fights plus was gun-shy in the third Tarver fight and eked out a points loss as some kind of a triumph.

Irrelevant piece of text, attempt to avoid discussing the points I presented.

I have watched the early rounds of the Johnson fight and Glen clearly landed shots and enough of them

Such as? Round, time?

Look, defence is not just about lying on the ropes with your gloves cupped around your ears for round after round then getting iced. A really good 'ropes' fighter will be able to roll, block, parry and counter. Jones could not do this.

Round 1. HBO timer.
2:31 Jones throws left hook to the ribs.
2:30 Jones parries left hook. Jones ducks low, hiding his head behind his shoulder when Johnson attempts to land a left hook (it slides over Jones' back and shoulder).
2:29 Johnson throwing left hook to the body, but it lands on Jones' elbow instead.
2:27 As Johnson comes in, Jones catches him with right uppercut right on the chin. Counter left hook from Johnson misses as Jones half-blocks it with his glove.
2:26 Left hook to the body from Johnson misses as Jones falls back on the ropes to avoid it.
2:24 Right hook from Johnson in a downward trajectory, Jones puts his right glove in front of his chin, lifts his left arm high to block the punch and cover his head additionally behind left shoulder.
2:23 Jones ducks low as Johnson attempts to land a left hook to the head, but it is blocked by Jones' shoulder. Johnson follows it up with a left hook to the body, but Jones covers his right side with his arm, so that the punches lands on his back instead (illegal punch).
2:21 Jones puts his hands in front of him and Johnson attempts to land a left hook to the head, but Jones lifts his right shoulder to make the punch slip to the side and not land.
2:19 Jones attempts to throw right hook to the head, but Johnson blocks it with his crab defense. Johnson tries to throw left hook to the body, but Jones' side is again covered with his arm, so the punch lands far on his back (again illegal punch). Jones throws a left uppercut, but Jonhson blocks it.
2:18 Johnson throws a right hook, but Jones twists his body clockwise and leans to the left and backwards a little so it doesn't land cleanly. Johnson throws a left hook, but Jones falls on the ropes and puts his hands in front of him, making the punch miss.
2:16 Jones lands a right uppercut to the head.
2:15 Johnson counter with left hook over the top, but Jones leans to the left and raises his right shoulder to make the punch slip over the top. Johnson lands a left hook far on the back (illegal punch), although it doesn't land cleanly.
2:14 Jones lands a left uppercut to the head of Johnson.
2:12 Johnson throws left hook to the body, but Jones as usual covers his side with his right arm and Johnson has no choice but to land it on his back instead (yet another illegal punch).
2:11 Jones lands a left hook to the head over Johnson's block.
2:08 Johnson lands a right hook to the side of Jones' head as Jones bends lower and leans to the right from it, so it doesn't land cleanly.
2:07 Johnson lands a left hook to the body.
2:06 Johnson throws a left uppercut to the head, but Jones partially blocks it with his left glove. Johnson follows it up with left hook to the head, but Jones lifts his shoulder and turns his head to the left making he punch slip without any damage.
2:04 Johnson throws a right hook to the head, and with Jones ducking low and leaning to the right, it lands on Jones' neck behind the ear (rabbit punch).
2:03 Johnson lands a left hook to the neck, behind Jones' block (which Jones puts up to cover his chin).
2:02 Johnson lands a left hook far to the back of Jones (illegal punch).
2:01 Johnson attempts to throw 2 or 3 punches, but as Jones leans to the right behind the block and ducks slightly, Glen doesn't finish throwing any of the punches, not wanting to waste them.
2:00 Johnson throws a right hook to the head, but Jones lifts his left arm and his shoulder and leans to the right making the punch slip and land only slightly behind his ear.
1:59 Johnson throws a left hook to the head, but Jones blocks it and leans to the left away from it.

This is just half a minute of the 1st round (most action-packed of all), where Jones is fighting off the ropes.

How did Jones counter his opponents better than Ali? Ali countered Foreman adequately and, despite his limitations, even that Big George was more of a fighter than the woeful Tarver and the hardworking Johnson. You say Ali looked terrible, well he never once looked unconscious.

When did Muhammad Ali turn 35 (same age as Jones was in fights with Tarver and Johnson)? But for his ring-wars I'll cut it by a couple years, alright. Fights from 1975 and on, in which of them did Ali show adequate defense and countering off the ropes? Maybe the Leon Spinks fight (he only turned 36, that's just several months away from when Jones faced Johnson)?

Tarver put out a punch and it landed and hurt Jones, it was as 'lucky' as Oliver McCall working on the right hand counter in training and icing Lewis with it.

As usual avoiding to even consider the way the punch was thrown. Did you see Tarver work on turning to the left, folding up to a jab and throwing an awkward overhand right hook from that position? Your attempts to avoid discussing exact things and cover your ignorance by generalized statements is laughable. Just admit that you have no counter-arguments to what I say, and I leave you alone.

Ali's latter-day 'bum of the month club' also saw him face a puncher like Shavers

A guy who had basically no boxing skills at all, third-tier contender only slightly better than Jean-Pierre Coopman or Richard Dunn kind of guys when boxing is concerned.

and the always tough, for Ali in particular, Norton.

A second-tier contender, who accidentally squeaked into IBHOF based on "the greatest" having troubles with him. Should Doug Jones or Henry Cooper get in there too?

Jones, as he often did, picked Johnson out as the least resistance path back to a title and got hammered.

Let's see. Who did Ali pick for his path back to a title? Former middleweight Jimmy Ellis, then Buster Mathis, then Jurgen Blin, Mac Foster, almost 35-years old George Chuvalo, rematch with Jerry Quarry he just beat a year and a half prior, Alvin Lewis37-years old Floyd Patterson, light-heavyweight Bob Foster, Joe Bugner, then Ring's #9 with padded-record (who was the best fighter Norton beat prior to meeting with Ali?) stood in the way of his carefully-planned comeback and almost ruined it not once, but twice, where he only managed to get past him with the help of the blind judges. What a stellar opposition did he pick for his comeback path, indeed! Those are facts.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 29 Mar 2007, 14:21

Terence wrote:You have thrown up a minute and half to show Jones was great on the ropes.

I posted punch-by-punch description of falf a minute.
Original statement:

Terence wrote:A really good 'ropes' fighter will be able to roll, block, parry and counter. Jones could not do this.

I provided a precedent that proves the above statement wrong.

Why not throw up the rest of the fight

The description I posted was already enough to prove your statement wrong. Considering the rest of the fight is meaningless when my point has been proved already.

and I will do my bit by trying to throw up a clip of the KO, Jones fighting well of the ropes

If you didn't notice it, Jones wasn't fighting off the ropes in the episode where he got caught. Your statement is totally irrelevant to discussion of Jones' exceptional skills at fighting off the ropes.

Jones took more stick of Woods than he should have done.

Several seconds, with no serious consequences whatsoever. Compare that to Ali getting unconscious twice, if I remember it right what Ali admitted about the Foreman fight. Compare that to the 3rd Frazier fight, where it's painful even to look at the face of Ali at the end of the fight.

Throwing up the bare age stat is pointless. Ali had far more milage on the clock than Jones and before you pip up and say it is because Ali was rubbish bear in mind some of the names he fought.

Ali fought a lot of poor fighters, among several better ones, and he didn't look very well even against them. The skill is among the last to go, certainly after speed, durability and power. Ali showed poor skills at fighting off the ropes there.

Shavers may have had rudimentary skills but I assure you if a latter-day Jones took him on he would be knocked-out by a passing glance from this type of puncher.

What does natural 168-pounder Jones have to do with Ali fighting a bum like Shavers?

Ali came back and fought Quarry and Bonavena after a lay-off.

Irrelevant. We are talking about Ali getting back to title fight after he lost them to Frazier.

Ali lost to a genuinely great heavyweight then took on some good names.

Good names? I gave you the list of who he fought in his return path, the list is pathetic compared to Jones returning against 175lb Top3 (at the time of the fight) fighter and then taking on the champion again in the next fight, in the situation where Ali decided to pad his record for a while before meeting anyone dangerous. Like I pointed out, had it not been the blind judges in the Norton rematch, Ali would never even reclaim the title.

Who did Jones face in his last comeback fight?

What last comeback fight? Ali took a dozen of tune-up fights before he even dared to challenge the champion, Jones has taken one tune-up fight so far.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 29 Mar 2007, 15:11

12 Tune up fights before he "dared" to fight the champion? huh?
Ali would have fought Frazier in immdiatley if he could have. These weren't "tuneups"

Jimmy Ellis was a middleweight as you mentioned. You forgot to mention that he was also the former WBA heavyweight champion.
Buster Mathis was legitimate contender.
Jurgin Blin could be labeled a tune up.
Mac Foster was a contender.
Chuvalo was past it but certainly wasn't a bum.
Ali beat Quarry again. He was certainly a contender.
Al Lewis was considered a contender.
Patterson was defintley past his prime, but Ali certainly could have found someone much easier.
Bob Foster wasn't a heavyweight contender.
Bugner was a contender.
Norton was a future champion.
Lubbers could be labled a tune up.
Frazier- do I really have to say that he was a contender?

Anyone that can go through these guys certainly deserves a title shot.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 29 Mar 2007, 15:30

Jones didn't take no tune up fights between the first real loss and the next challenge for the title. Glen Johnson wasn't just a contender, he was an IBF champion and a Top3 light heavyweight at the time.
Ali couldn't secure a rematch with Frazier any sooner than after he faced a long line of bums or contenders? Gimme a break.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 29 Mar 2007, 16:43

Give you a break? Use some common sense. Ali certainly wasn't afraid of Frazier. He fought him 3 times.
Why would Ali want to fight all of those contenders if he could get a title shot (and a huge payday) right away? The answer is that he couldn't get another title shot with Frazier right away. And there weren't 3 other "champions" that Ali could then fight like there is now.

Criticizing a contender for fighting several other top 10 contenders makes no sense to me.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 29 Mar 2007, 17:59

Criticizing Roy Jones Jr for fighting Glen Johnson within 4 months after he lost to Tarver, makes no sense to me, yet, you don't jump up to argue against that, do you?

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 29 Mar 2007, 18:22

And he ran away like a scared rabbit, without ever addressing the issue with anything else other than irrelevant pieces of information.
I repeat the last time, Jones wasn't on the ropes in the episode where he got caught. He was 2-3 feet away from the ropes, toward the center of the ring.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 30 Mar 2007, 01:13

There's, of course, no point to dispute a fact. And the fact is Jones was 2-3 feet away from the ropes when he got caught by that punch, as can be seen on the replay:

An objective observer might even notice how Jones was attempting to cover his chin up behind his left shoulder.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 30 Mar 2007, 04:24

He wasn't coming from the ropes, he just moved there from farther left quarter of the ring (from the camera showing this replay). Like I said, the knockout episode had absolutely nothing to do with Jones' skills of fighting off the ropes.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 30 Mar 2007, 05:50

My screenshot shows Jones only got near the ropes when he started falling. Pay attention to the vertical stripe with words "Everlast" which marks the center of each side of the ring's square, Jones visibly fell slightly towards to ropes which made the distance between him and the ropes lesser than it was when he was hit by that initial punch. Jones didn't go to the ropes in that episode or right prior to it, he was standing right in the middle between the ropes and the ring's center, at least 3 feet away from the ropes.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 30 Mar 2007, 07:32

Terence wrote:he cannot fight off the ropes

Thank you for admitting your mistake, that this episode could not be used to judge Jones' skills of fighting off the ropes, as he wasn't doing that in this episode. Case closed.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 30 Mar 2007, 08:30

You already admitted it that Jones wasn't on the ropes when the punch that knocked him out caught him. Don't try to take your words back after everyone saw them.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 30 Mar 2007, 09:07

Senya13 wrote:Criticizing Roy Jones Jr for fighting Glen Johnson within 4 months after he lost to Tarver, makes no sense to me, yet, you don't jump up to argue against that, do you?

No I didn't jump on this arguement between you and Terence about Roy Jones because I really don't have a strong opinion. Terence said "Jones, as he often did, picked Johnson out as the least resistance path back to a title and got hammered."
You obviously completely disagree with that. I don't completely agree with the entire statement either , but think there may be some truth to it. I agree that there is nothing wrong with Jones fighting someone else before fighting Tarver again. On the other hand, I believe that Terence was saying that Jones was trying to get a title belt by what the easy way by fighting what he thought would be an easy opponent may have some validity.

Was he fighting Johnson becasue he he need to get used to fighting at 175 again after the move to heavyweight, and be better prepared for a 3rd fight with Tarver ? That is legitimate.
Or was Jones just trying to get an easy title belt (by fighting Johnson who wasn't considered as good) so that he could be a "champion" again? I don't know, I can't read Jones mind. I didn't think it was worth "jumping" on the comment by Terence.

The comments you made about Ali (not daring to fight Frazier again, and supposedly fighting bums) seemed to me to be much more ridiculaus.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 30 Mar 2007, 09:38

Terence wrote:
Ali lost a relatively close decision to Frazier

The walking army of the Ali Industry strikes again.

Frazier knocked Ali FLAT ON HIS BACK.

Frazier clobbered Ali by a lopsided margin.

Members of the Ali Industry LIE.

They have to in order to sell their product.

Good work Terrence.

Keep marching in step with your fellow zombies.