stujones wrote:Autobarn wrote:stujones wrote:
No, I don't get your point, an 9 year world champion - undefeated and universally ranked #1 P4P moving up to challenge a man who has been a world champion off and on for 13 years - consistently considered in the top 5 of the "previous" generations P4P list who looked refreshed vs Mayorga.
Sorry, DLH and Mayweather had plenty of substance.
Compare either too Kessler who has been a champion for just 3 years, who whilst looking good in fights against the likes of Mundine, Andrade - won his titles vs faded fighters (with Beyer often accused of just being there for the payday).
This is a good competitive fight, there is much more substance to this than the Lacy fight. However, it is short of a superfight IMO. Kessler hasn't done enough to warrant being in the top 20 in most P4P lists. Hopkins is closer to a Superfight. What this fight is similar too is Lewis vs Tua.... Current generation champion vs the experts pick to be the next great champion.... but not one yet.
Now, if Kessler had beaten Bute or Froch (or the winner of the Froch vs Bute match) then there could be calls that this is a super fight.
A case can be made for Kessler being in the top 10. To say he's out of the top 20 is preposterous. Kessler is a commanding fighter who can hold the centre of the ring and dominate on a great jab, consistently vs top 10 competition and has at time sbeen cleamning out Calzaghe's division.
No one had problems hailing Lacy as a sensation, based on doing less than Kessler in less accomplished fashion.
Bute didn't gun for Kessler or Calzaghe. He's going for the weak champ, Berrios. I doubt Bute 'makes it' - he looks weak willed and when things get hot, he looks like he'll go into Dominic Guinn mode.
As for Jones-Toney, it wasn't a superfight. Toney was jittery of Jones (threw a chair at Mike Katz and stole his neck brace after being asked about Jones in training), allowed himself to get hideously out of shape as a built in excuse for when he lost. At the presser months before the fight he looked like Mr T...Toney was very good but at 168, Barkley, Williams and DeWitt were made for him. He lays on the ropes, they walk in on straight lined and he counters them (in addition, Maske beat Barkley better and Williams first).
1) Mayweather 2) Pac Man 3) Winky 4) Hatton 5) Calzaghe 6) DLH 7) JMM 8) Barrera 9) Cotto 10) Taylor 11) Hopkins 12) Rafael Marquez 13) Mosley 14) Chris John 15) Mirajes 16) Spinks 17) Wongkognham all should be above Kessler. (NB that was in no particular order)
Kessler is in the 18-25 bracket that would include the likes of Israel Vasquez, Jean Marc Mormeck, Wlad, Donaire, Munoz, Kiwoya etc. I think you made a point in another thread that HAD Kessler fought Hopkins he would have won and been in the top ten. Yep, I probably agree... but that fact is he hasn't. I'm sure in Feb 2006 many would have tipped Lacy to have beaten Hopkins.
Lacy - I agree, Kessler has fought better standard of opposition - although you cannot fault the manner of Lacy's wins when he was champion - he looked electric dispatching Reid and Pemberton... neither of whom we knew how shot he was at the time. Didn't he win Ring fighter of 2005? Not that you can fault Kessler's performances, but you couldn't fault Lacy's... pretty much on a par in terms of performances - although, yes Kessler's have been against better and more proven fighters.
I don't really care whether Toney looked like Butterbean... He was still the proven fighter of the two and was still the champion. I bet that Hatton will look like Bernard Manning at the early pressers if he fights Mayweather... is that still a Super Fight. Yes. Tyson vs Lewis was still a super fight, even though Tyson came in piss poor shape and was some years past his best. Why? cause we all assumed he would be in good shape and he was looking pretty good in 2000-2001... hard to tell just how shot he was. As with Hagler vs Leonard, no-one really anticipated that Hagler was going to grow old over night, indeed if there was any reason why this wasn't a Super Fight is because of the disadvatanges Leonard had. Chavez vs DLH is a different matter, cause it was obvious for some time that Chavez was in decline... as with Trinidad vs Whittikar and should Calzaghe fight Jones now.
Calzaghe vs Hopkins at this moment would be a Super Fight.
A Super Fight for me is something that should be seen as that months BEFORE the fight. Not based on the actual contest or performance/preperation of a fighter on that. I did say that I didn't class Jones vs Toney as a Super Fight - cause Jones wasn't that proven, although I think it is a fraction closer than this one.
yeah but with Toney, what stopped it being a super fight was that he wasn't willing to turn up. He seemed to be beaten mentally. While it was a super event, it became a dull domination by Jones, who basically carried him.
I know what you mean, but I think a lot of ppl think you need stars and stripes to have a big fight.
Re Hopkins - I've been a Hopkins supporter for a long time. What he does now is footnote stuff. His next fight v Wright is basically a super middle match between ageing guys who can't make middleweight anymore. It's also a 'marriage of convenience' - they only got an HBO date vs each other because of their promoter GBP.
I have Kessler above Pong Wong - until he goes for Kameda & Sakata he isn't proven enough; Taylor - not p4p material, he does just enough to LOSE each fight; Spinks; Mosley - good win over Collazo & shot Vargas only goes so far; Mijares - terrific fighter based on 2006 and 07 wins but a bit young/raw.
In terms of skill and achievement, Kessler is SOLID. Not spectacular, but consistent, accomplished, reliable, respectable and because he's been excellent since then end of '03 and beaten either former/current titlists and a hard mandatory. Not that many fighters can jab with such authority, hold the middle of the ring, adapt to different styles (slick defensive - Mundine; precise southpaw - Beyer; rugged slugger - Andrade; big, if basic, sluggers Lucas/Siaca).
Had say Jermain fought those guys - and he wants to be a super middle anyways - he would have been chronically backing up vs Lucas and Siaca, not dominating with a jab; would have been in some trouble vs Andrade; trying to win a hairline decision over Mundine not a convincing one...
