BoxRec

gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 20:15

Frostieballs wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 19:02 A lot of his legacy depends on how highly you rate Wilder.

I don’t rate Wilder very highly at all.

Wilder isn't that great, but he's better than some give him credit for at the same time. He'd probably legitimately be a Top 30 or Top 40 all time Heavyweight which is nothing to scoff at in a sport that has existed as long as Boxing has.

I can’t see that mate. No way a top 30/40 heavyweight of all time. I could name that many just from the 80’s/90’s.

A few years ago, before his decline, I said he was European level at best and compared his level to Gary Mason’s.

I took quite a lot of stick at the time, but stand by it!

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 02:03

gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 00:28

Taansend wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 23:44 I give Wilder more respect for his three losses to Fury than I do for any of his wins.

As for Fury, very talented fighter, big heart, and I'm glad I got to follow his whole career.

Not happy that he never met AJ & that's a tiny stain on his career but I ain't losing any sleep over it.

He didn't lose the first fight with Fury. It was a draw.

And if Fury and AJ never fight. It's not a tiny stain on their career. It's a tremendous stain, that drops them both several notches on the all time list. The loser of a fight between them would be better off for having fought and lost that fight than either would be if they never fought it at all.

It would be the equivalent of if Ali and Frazier had ducked each other their entire careers. It would disgrace them and their country.

Even I admit that's true. Same goes for Lewis and Bowe.

I don’t think the Bowe/Lewis miss is as bad as not having Fury/AJ. Perhaps that’s because I’m a big Lewis fan and simply think he’d have stopped Bowe relatively comfortably. I was never super high on Bowe and he was relatively easy to hit.

gregregegg wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 17:57 Both Fury and AJs best results are being gifted a split decision loss vs Usyk…

great point in fairness

Coco wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 14:08

MasterG wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 13:57 1980s British level absolutely max

Like Neville Meade?

Meade is not a good example really. But I certainly don't think Fury was any better than a Frank Bruno.

Gary Mason v Fury would have been a competitive fight.

I would also put Herbie Hide as a favourite against Fury.

I would maybe rank Fury along with a good Scott Welch and Danny Williams.

Frostieballs wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:37

gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 20:15

Frostieballs wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 19:02 A lot of his legacy depends on how highly you rate Wilder.

I don’t rate Wilder very highly at all.

Wilder isn't that great, but he's better than some give him credit for at the same time. He'd probably legitimately be a Top 30 or Top 40 all time Heavyweight which is nothing to scoff at in a sport that has existed as long as Boxing has.

I can’t see that mate. No way a top 30/40 heavyweight of all time. I could name that many just from the 80’s/90’s.

A few years ago, before his decline, I said he was European level at best and compared his level to Gary Mason’s.

I took quite a lot of stick at the time, but stand by it!

Who could you name from the 80's that's better than Wilder besides Tyson and Holmes?

mickey1975 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 14:30

Coco wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 14:08

MasterG wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 13:57 1980s British level absolutely max

Like Neville Meade?

Horace Notice?

Horice was a decent boxer.

MasterG wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:43

Coco wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 14:08

MasterG wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 13:57 1980s British level absolutely max

Like Neville Meade?

Meade is not a good example really. But I certainly don't think Fury was any better than a Frank Bruno.

Gary Mason v Fury would have been a competitive fight.

I would also put Herbie Hide as a favourite against Fury.

I would maybe rank Fury along with a good Scott Welch and Danny Williams.

I think Fury is too good for all those. He outboxes them all and probably stops most, maybe even all of them.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 20:15

Frostieballs wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 19:02 A lot of his legacy depends on how highly you rate Wilder.

I don’t rate Wilder very highly at all.

Wilder isn't that great, but he's better than some give him credit for at the same time. He'd probably legitimately be a Top 30 or Top 40 all time Heavyweight which is nothing to scoff at in a sport that has existed as long as Boxing has.

Is this a joke?

It's very easy to list 40 heavyweights who would beat Deontay Wilder. I could probably name a 100.

MasterG wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:43

Coco wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 14:08

MasterG wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 13:57 1980s British level absolutely max

Like Neville Meade?

Meade is not a good example really. But I certainly don't think Fury was any better than a Frank Bruno.

Gary Mason v Fury would have been a competitive fight.

I would also put Herbie Hide as a favourite against Fury.

I would maybe rank Fury along with a good Scott Welch and Danny Williams.

Nah that’s way too far for me. Fury would absolutely dog walk Williams and Welch and also far too clever for Bruno.

Not his biggest fan but in terms of raw talent and ability he’s head and shoulders above them.

Let’s have some parliamentary procedure.

Riddick Bowie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:49

gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 20:15

Frostieballs wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 19:02 A lot of his legacy depends on how highly you rate Wilder.

I don’t rate Wilder very highly at all.

Wilder isn't that great, but he's better than some give him credit for at the same time. He'd probably legitimately be a Top 30 or Top 40 all time Heavyweight which is nothing to scoff at in a sport that has existed as long as Boxing has.

Is this a joke?

It's very easy to list 40 heavyweights who would beat Deontay Wilder. I could probably name a 100.

Could you?

I'm pretty sure what you'd come up with is a list of about 45 guys that Wilder would definitely beat, 30 guys that he might beat, and 25 guys that he couldn't beat.

MasterG wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:44

mickey1975 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 14:30

Coco wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 14:08

Like Neville Meade?

Horace Notice?

Horice was a decent boxer.

So is Tyson. Very, very decent in fact.

Cbarnes19 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:42

gregregegg wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 17:57 Both Fury and AJs best results are being gifted a split decision loss vs Usyk…

great point in fairness

Ok, let's take the Fury in the first Usyk fight. Highly competitive, top level fight. How would Usyk do against the 80's Brits who achieved nothing at world level despite the entire top 20 being addicted to crack for most of the decade.

maverick23 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:40

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 02:03

gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 00:28

He didn't lose the first fight with Fury. It was a draw.

And if Fury and AJ never fight. It's not a tiny stain on their career. It's a tremendous stain, that drops them both several notches on the all time list. The loser of a fight between them would be better off for having fought and lost that fight than either would be if they never fought it at all.

It would be the equivalent of if Ali and Frazier had ducked each other their entire careers. It would disgrace them and their country.

Even I admit that's true. Same goes for Lewis and Bowe.

I don’t think the Bowe/Lewis miss is as bad as not having Fury/AJ. Perhaps that’s because I’m a big Lewis fan and simply think he’d have stopped Bowe relatively comfortably. I was never super high on Bowe and he was relatively easy to hit.

I'm a big Bowe fan on his night, which admittedly there weren't enough of. As you know, I don't forgive Lennox getting sparked twice as easily as most, either.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 04:33

maverick23 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:40

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 02:03
Even I admit that's true. Same goes for Lewis and Bowe.

I don’t think the Bowe/Lewis miss is as bad as not having Fury/AJ. Perhaps that’s because I’m a big Lewis fan and simply think he’d have stopped Bowe relatively comfortably. I was never super high on Bowe and he was relatively easy to hit.

I'm a big Bowe fan on his night, which admittedly there weren't enough of. As you know, I don't forgive Lennox getting sparked twice as easily as most, either.

Yeah. I really like the fact that Lewis avenged his losses though when means I forgive his KO losses a bit more.

For me though if you take away the Holyfield trilogy off Bose’s record there isn’t a great deal left. He took bad beatings in both the Golota fights too.

maverick23 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 05:39

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 04:33

maverick23 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:40

I don’t think the Bowe/Lewis miss is as bad as not having Fury/AJ. Perhaps that’s because I’m a big Lewis fan and simply think he’d have stopped Bowe relatively comfortably. I was never super high on Bowe and he was relatively easy to hit.

I'm a big Bowe fan on his night, which admittedly there weren't enough of. As you know, I don't forgive Lennox getting sparked twice as easily as most, either.

Yeah. I really like the fact that Lewis avenged his losses though when means I forgive his KO losses a bit more.

For me though if you take away the Holyfield trilogy off Bose’s record there isn’t a great deal left. He took bad beatings in both the Golota fights too.

Got to give Tyson a bit of credit then for clearing up the McDermott controversy, putting the Wilder draw right and then getting straight back in with Usyk 7 months later. Slightly above 80's British heavyweight form!

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 05:44

maverick23 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 05:39

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 04:33
I'm a big Bowe fan on his night, which admittedly there weren't enough of. As you know, I don't forgive Lennox getting sparked twice as easily as most, either.

Yeah. I really like the fact that Lewis avenged his losses though when means I forgive his KO losses a bit more.

For me though if you take away the Holyfield trilogy off Bose’s record there isn’t a great deal left. He took bad beatings in both the Golota fights too.

Got to give Tyson a bit of credit then for clearing up the McDermott controversy, putting the Wilder draw right and then getting straight back in with Usyk 7 months later. Slightly above 80's British heavyweight form!

100%.

Particularly the early career McDermott fight. The wilder 2 fight was one of the best, surprising performances I’ve seen live on TV. Wilder hasn’t been the same since.

I don’t really get why/how people are thinking Fury is in similar class to Mason or other 80s British heavyweights. He’d have boxed their heads up similar to what he did to Chisora. I think he’d have beat Bruno comfortably too.

Beat Wlad, stopped a limited Wilder twice, hammered Chisora twice and pushed Usyk to close fights (which I thought Usyk narrowly won still), stopped Whyte is in a different league to guys like Mason.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 04:03

Riddick Bowie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 03:49

gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025, 20:15

Wilder isn't that great, but he's better than some give him credit for at the same time. He'd probably legitimately be a Top 30 or Top 40 all time Heavyweight which is nothing to scoff at in a sport that has existed as long as Boxing has.

Is this a joke?

It's very easy to list 40 heavyweights who would beat Deontay Wilder. I could probably name a 100.

Could you?

I'm pretty sure what you'd come up with is a list of about 45 guys that Wilder would definitely beat, 30 guys that he might beat, and 25 guys that he couldn't beat.

I know you only got into boxing in the 2000s but even you should know it's easy to list a 100 heavyweights superior to Bermaine Stiverne and Luis Ortiz.

Wilder can't box, has no jab, no hook, can't punch in combination, is ungainly and chinny. That's why his team protected him. He isn't beating anyone decent.

Re: Wilder - Have to agree.

At his best, does he beat any of these at their best, which is the fairest way to gauge it (~ excluding Holmes, Holyfied and Tyson):

Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams, Mike Weaver, Michael Spinks, James Smith, Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas, Gerry Cooney, Trevor Berbick. You could even throw in there a James Broad and Michael Dokes.

I can't see him beating any one of them, personally and I have watched them and I have watched him.

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:07 Re: Wilder - Have to agree.

At his best, does he beat any of these at their best, which is the fairest way to gauge it (~ excluding Holmes, Holyfied and Tyson):

Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams, Mike Weaver, Michael Spinks, James Smith, Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas, Gerry Cooney, Trevor Berbick. You could even throw in there a James Broad and Michael Dokes.

I can't see him beating any one of them, personally and I have watched them and I have watched him.

At his best, yes, I'd pick him against a lot of them. The thing is, we will never know...

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:27

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:07 Re: Wilder - Have to agree.

At his best, does he beat any of these at their best, which is the fairest way to gauge it (~ excluding Holmes, Holyfied and Tyson):

Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams, Mike Weaver, Michael Spinks, James Smith, Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas, Gerry Cooney, Trevor Berbick. You could even throw in there a James Broad and Michael Dokes.

I can't see him beating any one of them, personally and I have watched them and I have watched him.

At his best, yes, I'd pick him against a lot of them. The thing is, we will never know...

When was he at his best ?

paultom wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:59

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:27

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:07 Re: Wilder - Have to agree.

At his best, does he beat any of these at their best, which is the fairest way to gauge it (~ excluding Holmes, Holyfied and Tyson):

Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams, Mike Weaver, Michael Spinks, James Smith, Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas, Gerry Cooney, Trevor Berbick. You could even throw in there a James Broad and Michael Dokes.

I can't see him beating any one of them, personally and I have watched them and I have watched him.

At his best, yes, I'd pick him against a lot of them. The thing is, we will never know...

When was he at his best ?

Wlad or Wilder 2 in my opinion. I think his head was switched on 100% for both those fights. I think it was for Usyk 1 as well but his out of the ring living caught up with him in the second half of the fight.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:27

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:07 Re: Wilder - Have to agree.

At his best, does he beat any of these at their best, which is the fairest way to gauge it (~ excluding Holmes, Holyfied and Tyson):

Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams, Mike Weaver, Michael Spinks, James Smith, Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas, Gerry Cooney, Trevor Berbick. You could even throw in there a James Broad and Michael Dokes.

I can't see him beating any one of them, personally and I have watched them and I have watched him.

At his best, yes, I'd pick him against a lot of them. The thing is, we will never know...

PS I was referencing Wilder, not Fury btw

Fury, yeah I can definitely see him taking the W against a few of those, no argument.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 10:16

paultom wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:59

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:27
At his best, yes, I'd pick him against a lot of them. The thing is, we will never know...

When was he at his best ?

Wlad or Wilder 2 in my opinion. I think his head was switched on 100% for both those fights. I think it was for Usyk 1 as well but his out of the ring living caught up with him in the second half of the fight.

Sorry, meant when was Wilders best ?

paultom wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 11:20

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 10:16

paultom wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 09:59

When was he at his best ?

Wlad or Wilder 2 in my opinion. I think his head was switched on 100% for both those fights. I think it was for Usyk 1 as well but his out of the ring living caught up with him in the second half of the fight.

Sorry, meant when was Wilders best ?

He showed a lot more in Fury 3 than in his wins.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 11:50

paultom wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 11:20

mickey1975 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025, 10:16
Wlad or Wilder 2 in my opinion. I think his head was switched on 100% for both those fights. I think it was for Usyk 1 as well but his out of the ring living caught up with him in the second half of the fight.

Sorry, meant when was Wilders best ?

He showed a lot more in Fury 3 than in his wins.

yes, I would have said either Fury 1 or 3