Top Ten Heavyweight Europe All Time

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 05 Apr 2006, 10:42

Just watched some records of some all time greats after the war in the Euro scene like Joe Bugner, Sir Henry Cooper or Jürgen Blin. And I asked myself: Who were the best of them? So I tried to make a Top Ten what is very difficult. What do you guys think about such a ranking?

1. Max Schmeling
Lennox Lewis
3. Ingemar Johansson
4. Vitali Klitschko
5. Sir Henry Cooper
6..Primo Carnera
7. Joe Bugner
8. Karl Mildenberger
9. Wladimir Klitschko
10. Frank Bruno

IMO it is very difficult to compare actual fighters with older times. How much is a Euro title in 1960 worth and so on......

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Apr 2006, 10:51

Hang about! Schmeling rates above Lewis? Based on what, a solitary victory over an inexperienced Louis?

Loynesy · Post by **Loynesy** » 05 Apr 2006, 11:05

Have to agree with James there Bubi, Max was a wonderful man and had a great win over Louis, but you can't really rate him over Lennox for that.

tigerpomfret · Post by **tigerpomfret** » 05 Apr 2006, 11:06

I would rate Joe Bugner superior to all the others,not sure of schemling,lewis would scrap in top 5 i suppose,johanson as well,Mildenberger gets in,far far superior to cooper,who should`nt even be metioned,intresting naming Vitali klitschko,but he never fought anyone ecept overated lewis,so there you go.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 05 Apr 2006, 11:12

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Hang about! Schmeling rates above Lewis? Based on what, a solitary victory over an inexperienced Louis?

I rate them together on 1, Max beat maybe the best boxer of all time together with Ali. Lennox hasn´t that aura and is maybe no that legend. Maybe in 20 years I have Lennox on 1 and another opinion about him. I don´t like him that much personally and the way he "acted" in the last years of his career and his inactivity.......

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 05 Apr 2006, 11:14

BubiScholz wrote:Just watched some records of some all time greats after the war in the Euro scene like Joe Bugner, Sir Henry Cooper or Jürgen Blin. And I asked myself: Who were the best of them? So I tried to make a Top Ten what is very difficult. What do you guys think about such a ranking?

1. Max Schmeling
Lennox Lewis
3. Ingemar Johansson
4. Vitali Klitschko
5. Sir Henry Cooper
6..Primo Carnera
7. Joe Bugner
8. Karl Mildenberger
9. Wladimir Klitschko
10. Frank Bruno

IMO it is very difficult to compare actual fighters with older times. How much is a Euro title in 1960 worth and so on......

Lewis is No1 by some stretch in my eyes.

Also I have only seen Johansson's 3 fights with Patterson but he didnt impress me at all. Small, tentative and with only a right hand howitzer to make up for the defects.

In terms of skill Bugner is far superior to Carnera and Ingo

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Apr 2006, 11:14

what a ridiculous statement.

From pomfret that is.....

Who the fornicate did Bugner ever beat. He let an out of shape and past it Ali beat him, and fought like a frightened rabbit his whole career.

Going the distance with great fighters doesn't mean much if you are not competitive.

Lewis beat far better competition than Buger, who looked the part, had great defensive skills, but a heart the size of a walnut.

Bugner lost all his biggest fights, Lewis won his, big difference.

Name Bugner's best wins.

Ray Mercer is better than ANYONE Bugner beat, Bruno is probably better than any of the names of Bugner's ledger, christ Bugner lost to MARVIS Frazier!!

I'd love to hear a rationale for Bugner being ahead of Lewis, except for being a Lewis hater of course.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 05 Apr 2006, 11:23

I know it's wrong to take boxrec rankings as anything other than the random generations of a computer, but they do make quite interesting reading in this issue:

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?natio ... &SUBMIT=Go

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 05 Apr 2006, 11:46

BubiScholz wrote:Just watched some records of some all time greats after the war in the Euro scene like Joe Bugner, Sir Henry Cooper or Jürgen Blin. And I asked myself: Who were the best of them? So I tried to make a Top Ten what is very difficult. What do you guys think about such a ranking?

1. Max Schmeling
Lennox Lewis
3. Ingemar Johansson
4. Vitali Klitschko
5. Sir Henry Cooper
6..Primo Carnera
7. Joe Bugner
8. Karl Mildenberger
9. Wladimir Klitschko
10. Frank Bruno

IMO it is very difficult to compare actual fighters with older times. How much is a Euro title in 1960 worth and so on......

Good list except that LL has indeed to be above Schmeling and not equal (as I read your ranking). Schnmeling is clearly #2 though.

Carnera should be ranked above Cooper. And Vlad and perhaps even Bruno could also be ranked a bit higher. Both held titles, while Mildenberger was never more than a 2nd-rate contender, for example.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 05 Apr 2006, 11:50

Coconut wrote:I know it's wrong to take boxrec rankings as anything other than the random generations of a computer, but they do make quite interesting reading in this issue:

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?natio ... &SUBMIT=Go

Kind of interesting. However, if you do the same for the light-heavyweight divisino, for example, you get complete crap. Anyoe ever heard of the Greek there who's ranked #1?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:20

pundit wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:Just watched some records of some all time greats after the war in the Euro scene like Joe Bugner, Sir Henry Cooper or Jürgen Blin. And I asked myself: Who were the best of them? So I tried to make a Top Ten what is very difficult. What do you guys think about such a ranking?

1. Max Schmeling
Lennox Lewis
3. Ingemar Johansson
4. Vitali Klitschko
5. Sir Henry Cooper
6..Primo Carnera
7. Joe Bugner
8. Karl Mildenberger
9. Wladimir Klitschko
10. Frank Bruno

IMO it is very difficult to compare actual fighters with older times. How much is a Euro title in 1960 worth and so on......
Good list except that LL has indeed to be above Schmeling and not equal (as I read your ranking). Schnmeling is clearly #2 though.

Carnera should be ranked above Cooper. And Vlad and perhaps even Bruno could also be ranked a bit higher. Both held titles, while Mildenberger was never more than a 2nd-rate contender, for example.

Trouble with Carnera though is, just how many of his fights were fixed. We know some of them were for certain, but just how many?

ABA Boxing · Post by **ABA Boxing** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:28

Could we add Bob Fitzsimmons to the list?

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:29

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Trouble with Carnera though is, just how many of his fights were fixed. We know some of them were for certain, but just how many?

I think the Ambling Alp probably made a better strong man then fighter...
He was owned by the mob as far as I can remember

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:34

Yes he was, it's well documented. Trouble was, Primo didn't realise how many of his fights were fixed, and it came as something of a shock when Max Baer, or was it buddy? ripped him a new hole.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:36

How come Ingemar Johansson retired when he did? he had won the Euro Heavy Title and was coming off a win over Brian London.
Was it to do with the banning of pro boxing in Sweden?

Its just he must have been able to get some good money earning fights at that time.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:41

pundit wrote:
Coconut wrote:I know it's wrong to take boxrec rankings as anything other than the random generations of a computer, but they do make quite interesting reading in this issue:

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?natio ... &SUBMIT=Go
Kind of interesting. However, if you do the same for the light-heavyweight divisino, for example, you get complete crap. Anyoe ever heard of the Greek there who's ranked #1?

the #1 in Light Heavy is a no-brainer I think

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:47

Is it? I don't think it is.....If you are going to say either Roy Jones or Dariusz Michaelszewski, then please don't.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:49

pundit wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:Just watched some records of some all time greats after the war in the Euro scene like Joe Bugner, Sir Henry Cooper or Jürgen Blin. And I asked myself: Who were the best of them? So I tried to make a Top Ten what is very difficult. What do you guys think about such a ranking?

1. Max Schmeling
Lennox Lewis
3. Ingemar Johansson
4. Vitali Klitschko
5. Sir Henry Cooper
6..Primo Carnera
7. Joe Bugner
8. Karl Mildenberger
9. Wladimir Klitschko
10. Frank Bruno

IMO it is very difficult to compare actual fighters with older times. How much is a Euro title in 1960 worth and so on......
Good list except that LL has indeed to be above Schmeling and not equal (as I read your ranking). Schnmeling is clearly #2 though.

Carnera should be ranked above Cooper. And Vlad and perhaps even Bruno could also be ranked a bit higher. Both held titles, while Mildenberger was never more than a 2nd-rate contender, for example.

Mildenberger was top in Europe in his peak and Ali once said that it was one of his hardest fights ever and Mildenberger would have held a title later on when there were more titles available. Don´t forget that there was only one title and Ali at his peak...... In these times there was no European who could beat Americas elite boxers in the best area in Heavyweight boxing. Ali, Frazier or Foreman are among the best Heavyweights of all time. In these times a Euro title was much more worth than today and was real big in TV and press media.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:50

So tell me Bubi who is the best LH ever?

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:51

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Is it? I don't think it is.....If you are going to say either Roy Jones or Dariusz Michaelszewski, then please don't.

Clinton Woods?

Is Roy really from Europe?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:51

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Is it? I don't think it is.....If you are going to say either Roy Jones or Dariusz Michaelszewski, then please don't.

Roy Jones European??
DM would be a good choice though.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:52

jamesmcdonnell wrote:So tell me Bubi who is the best LH ever?

Archie Moore or Sugar Ray Robinson who IMO also fought in LH.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:52

Oh yeah, forgot this was European, thought Bubi was talking about best LH worldwide.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:54

BubiScholz wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:So tell me Bubi who is the best LH ever?
Archie Moore or Sugar Ray Robinson who IMO also fought in LH.

You are on crack if you rate SRR as best LH of all time. Truly bizarre.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 05 Apr 2006, 12:59

BubiScholz wrote:
Mildenberger was top in Europe in his peak and Ali once said that it was one of his hardest fights ever and Mildenberger would have held a title later on when there were more titles available. Don´t forget that there was only one title and Ali at his peak...... In these times there was no European who could beat Americas elite boxers in the best area in Heavyweight boxing. Ali, Frazier or Foreman are among the best Heavyweights of all time. In these times a Euro title was much more worth than today and was real big in TV and press media.

I don't think it's hugely commendable having someone say that you'd have held a title if there were more titles available. It's like saying you'd have a better looking girlfriend if suddenly 4 times more girls became good looking.

Back in the day, a Euro title guaranteed you a top 10 ranking, I think I'm right in saying.

Top Ten Heavyweight Europe All Time

Top Ten Heavyweight Europe All Time

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